PAKHTOON VS PUNJAB (PAK) DEBATE

I came across this rather interesting debate between a Pakhtoon and a Pak Punjabi and was in the blog: VOICE OF THE PASHTUN LAND PART 2 OF THE DEBATE IS ALSO ATTACHED BELOW.

However, before you read the article, I will suggest you read about the guy ZAID HAMID - after all I stumbled upon this interesting blog after reading about him, how Zaid Hamid's butt was kicked by the Pakhtoons in Islamia University in Peshawar. My article : ZAID HAMID OF BRASSTACKS, PAKISTAN - DEFENSE ANALYST OR CHARLATAN OR DELUSIONAL? (Read some comments too !!)

THE ARTICLE:

This is a debate between a Punjabi (PAKISTAN) friend (P) and myself (A).It emcompasses some important points between the Afghans/Pashtuns and Punjabis on various issues. (NOTE A = PAKHTOON PERSON)
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P)When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, India was fully supporting the Russians, and in fact there was Indian intelligence presence in Afghanistan.

A) Indian support for Russia during Afghan war was very justified. India is a respectable member of N.A.M and has been anti imperialists so was the Dr Najib’s govt.While Pakistan’s support of USA was just for US dollars. Every one knows it and admits it. There is so much literature on it. What Pakistan gained from supporting US in Afghan war.Nothing.It was just Chowdry Zia act to strengthen and legitimise his regime. It gave death, destruction and Kalashnikov culture to Pakistan. Ask Punjabi journalists. Even they have admitted it. Ask Nazir Naji about Ojri camp.Ask that stereotype Brig Imam. Even these criminals admit that in the long run Pakistan did not gain anything. Have a heart in addition to a brain.
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P) India was secretly funding, supporting the terrorist organization BLA in Pakistan's Baluchistan province, India was once again playing the same game it played before during the 1971 war, they basically wanted to break away Baluchistan from Pakistan by supporting a separatist insurgency. So this is why we Pakistanis get worried when india comes into Afghanistan.We shouldn't forget that it was india who funded the terrorist group "Mukhti Bahini" in East Pakistan and then finally violated and crossed the international border of East Pakistan with its army.So you tell me, how can we let this same enemy into Afghanistan? Especially when india funded BLA in 1980's?

A) BLA is a freedom fighter organization against the illegal occupation of Punjab. Every man of conscience should support it. Visit ww.Balochwarna.com to read about it so that your wrong assumptions and misconceptions are cleared.Shaikh Mujib was the bone of contention in the eyes of the then military and that is why his Freedom movement which succeeded is disliked by the Punjabis. Bengal is free now.Balochistan, Pakhtunkhwa and Sind are in line.
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P) India funded MQM criminals and thugs.

A) MQM was the product of your beloved ISI and army under Chowdry Zia to counter People's party.
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P) Today BLA has once again been brought back from the dustbin of History ever since America allowed india into Afghanistan. Many sophisticated weaponry and communications devices have been captured from TTP and BLA insurgents, now where are they getting enough cash to buy all this? simple, their indian agents in Afghanistan have got them covered.

A) Why is that Pakistan approves of Taliban in Afghanistan and not in Pakistan? The reason is that Afghan Taliban are their puppets, the puppets of military and ISI,Naseerullah Babar and Colonel Sultan Tarar aka Col Imam. Pakistan hates TTP because one faction among them has turned against the banana state. How much double standards these are. When Pakistan army and agencies make Afghans orphan by their terrorist activities then they are happy and when the families of Punjabis are affected Pakistan start ranting against TTP - who were initially Pakistan's own product. What a shame?
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P) I have no problem with Afghans, your my brothers and sisters, but ever since Afghan governments in the past began to intervene in Indo-Pak conflict we had no choice but to resort to supporting groups such as Taliban.

A) Pakistan has always intervened into the affairs of Afghanistan on the contrary.What a state of denial are you in?
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P) Regarding Iran, once again our problem with Iran is about regional strategic depth. Iran has helped india numerous times before, and even now they are a little doubtful of Pakistan. But Pakistan has been improving its relations with Iran lately, we helped them capture Jundullah leader and both nations are going to finalise the Iran-Pakistan-China oil pipeline.

A) I agree Pakistan has improved relations with Iran and have also committed proliferation as you admitted yourself. This is what exactly world is concerned about. Iran’s theocratic govt is as fanatic as your fundamentalist parties like JUI, JI, Tablighi Jummat which have been the nurseries of extremism and terrorism.
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P) Pakistan is trying its best to stabilize Afghanistan today, we want both Karzai, Northern Alliance, and Taliban to merge together and form a strong and friendly Afghanistan that will stay neutral in Pakistan-india conflict.

A) No one has asked Pakistan to stabilise Afghanistan. It should first stabilise herself then should think about others. Have you established " Khilafata Rashida" of Taliban in Pakistan which you suggest to Afghanistan?.Afghanistan is not the client state of Pakistan.Afghanistan will decide for herself whether to become a party or keep nuetral in conflict according to her national interests.
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P) We can't have a Afghanistan that the indians will use against us because this will force us to fight on two fronts, Afghanistan and on the other front india's million man army. We don't have resources and economy to fight such a war.

A) Afghanistan is a sovereign state established 200 years earlier than Pakistan [revised version 1971].Pakistan has no right to dictate her policies or install their puppets like Taliban and Hikmatyar type of ISI stooges there.
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P) India doesn't care about Afghan blood, they only want to destroy Pakistan, heck while Pakistan was helping to negotiate peace between Taliban and Karzai, india was begging America to stay in Afghanistan for few more years and not negotiate with Taliban.

A) India has helped Afghanistan in Infrastructure and other fields being the world growing economy and a world fastest IT resource hub for the whole world. Pakistan on the contrary is the hub of terrorists and suicide bombers and has been involved in killing and genocide of Pashtuns and Afghans for the last 30 years.
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P) I've grown up in America, so I am western educated (not Pakistani), I have looked and studied Pakistan and its history from a neutral perspective, I don't need some Pakistani hater to tell me what my country is.


A) Well I am not interested in your country.The problem is that you have only studied the Punjabi version which is against academic ethics. I do not have any problem if you love Pakistan, the problem is that you do not call spade a spade. By the way I live in the most dangerous area of your beloved country [near Pakistan Afghan border] and while you would have read about Pakistan, I have seen and experienced it with my own eyes. Love is blind but it does not mean it blinds everyone around too.
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P) Do you mean the same Soviet Russia that slaughtered more than 1 million and a half Afghans?

A) Russia was invited by Dr Najib’s progressive govt, my dear. Please read the historic archives. It was a help by an ideological ally. Just read the steps of Najib’s govt and reforms during that golden era. The reason for the human loss of lives was not that Russia wanted to kill but it was Pakistan idea to involve US and put a stop to revolution. Gen Zia being a dictator wanted to legitimise his regime.

If you don’t understand this basic idea then your blind love will conceal every fact of life around you. Please read “The Bear Trap” by MARK EDKIN and Brig YUSUF of Pakistan Army. WILLIAM CASEY was the CIA chief at that time. I am not fond of refuting your argument for fun, as you are enjoying life over there in US while it is our poor but brave people both in Afghanistan and Pakistan who are getting killed every day due to the power elite who benefits from this type of imperialistic logic which you are trying to advocate.
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P) The same goes for Karzai and the Afghan government, they are only for dollars. Instead of pointing fingers at Pakistan, you might want to fix your own home up first. There is a saying "When you point a finger at others, your own three fingers point back at you".

A) This is immature thinking pattern but to encourage you to continue your so called neutral study, I am sure you know that Karzai is from an Aristocratic and well off family in Afghanistan and was working in Halliburton in US. He is the son of former high official in Afghan politics. Why would he involve himself in the most dangerous geostrategic game that too in a country which is surrounded by enemies and which has been war struck for 3 decades? So while I am not saying he is perfect or his team consists of angels, the points which I raised about Pakistan's crime are admitted by more Pakistanis than others.

Pakistan Army kill innocent people and tell the world that they kill terrorists and get more bucks from the world and from US. Even had they invested this money in the welfare of common man still this would not have been justified by any law of ethics or morality.However the bitter truth is that all the money for Earthquakes, GWOT etc was invested in strengthening the army empire in Pakistan not in the welfare of common man or even low rank army personnel.

Come here to your country [ which you do not prefer despite claiming its blind love as it is a living hell for common people] and see for yourself the empire of Fauji Foundation, Fauji Fertlizer, Army Real Estate schemes, Army welfare Trust and so much. Read Ayesha Siddiqa's Military Incorporated.Poor people even in Punjab sell or kill their kids due to poverty. It is not reasoning for the sake of reasoning.Watch GEO TV channel ,for example. You will know it yourself,what I am talking about.
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P) Yep, these same criminals helped to liberate your country from the Russians.

A) As I told you Pakistani army and ISI did not liberate Afghanistan. Your army was not there in the Anglo Afghan wars, your ISI was not there when Greeks came, your MI was not there when Mongols came ,neither did Pakistani COAS fought in Panipat. Afghans are one invincible people about whom Alexander had written to his mother that "You have given birth to one Alexander while the region [current day Afghanistan] where I am fighting has every kid as brave as Alexander".

Afghans might have lots of limitations and drawbacks but they know how to safeguard their freedom. They, by nature, cannot be subdued. Ghani Khan - the legendry son of the great Baacha Khan says:

Mung pa plar nika dee za marzay karoona karay
Za ba ghulam nasham ka ghulam shee tol jahan

[TRANSLATION: We have lead our lives freely for generations...
I will still refuse to submit even if the whole world bows to imperialism]

About the crimes of Pakistan army against humanity, I agree with you.Pakistan army was there to destroy Afghanistan for US money and legalization of Military regime of Zia at that time.
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P) I have a heart and brain, at least i'm not the racist one using racist remarks such as "Punjabi journalists".

A) What you call racist remarks, my naïve hyper friend, is in political context not in the context of how you use it against Blacks, for example, in US or against Jewish in ME or anti Semitics in German literature. As the elite class is from North Punjab hence any political analyst use this term to point out that particular class which consists of military and civil beaureocracy,media and clergy from Punjab. I am not against a common Punjabi poor man whose life is made hell due to his feudal lord.

Google my id,Pir_Rokhan, I have written more literature for that oppressed class than anyone else.Poeple claim to be Pakistani but serve the malicious designs of the cruel killers of Pakistani military elite.
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P) Just because you said so i should believe? BTW, if Pakistan was committing genocide and human rights violations then this would be no secret event, Indian media would be very quick in picking up this event and defaming Pakistan.

A) Well I gave you the link www.balochwarna.com. You can check it. The case of Baloch is more critical as they do not recognise the state of Pakistan in the first place and have already declared their freedom and are fighting against the illegal occupation of Pakistan.Indian media does give it coverage but not much.

Any freedom fighter would love to be helped by any country or state. India might be Pakistan’s enemy but the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Hence India is their friend and should be their friend. History is replete with such examples. The traitor of one nation is the hero of another.Paksitani leader were the traitors of United India as they divided it. While the same are being adored as heroes of freedom by Pakistani media. How true was Einstein when he said every thing is relative in his thesis on relativity in 1905.

Pakhtuns, on the contrary, are just asking for provincial autonomy ,united Pakhtuns province and their legal rights within Pakistan. They have not yet started the freedom struggle in the real sense of the term. India doesn’t pick up much news from Baloch leaders as most of the Baloch leaders have taken political asylem in UK not in India. They expose the policies of Pakistan army to the First world media instead of telling it to the media of a third world country.
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P) Do you mean the same Mujib who was later killed by his own Bengali countrymen? I hope you know that all those who betrayed and harmed Pakistan in 1971 were killed by their own people: India Ghandi killed by Sikh Indians, Mujib killed by Bengalis, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto executed by General Zia. It doesn't end here: Akbar Bughti of BLA killed by Pakistani commandos, Abdullah Mehsud of TTP killed by Pakistan army, Baithullah Mehsud killed by an unintentional drone strike, Hakeemullah Mehsud killed by unintentional drone strike, etc....

A) He just raised his voice for the rights of his people. East Pakistan had more Population. They had a separate language. They produced Jute. They won the election. So they asked for their due rights which were not acceptable to Punjab. So what were they supposed to do? And see what your army did to the innocent Bengalis. Pakistan army massacred them. Yes massacred them, their kids, women, infants, youngsters, old and patients. They did indiscriminate killing and genocide. General Musharraf even asked for state level formal apology. Bengalis are such a brave nation they lost millions of their lives but got freedom from oppression of their so called “Muslim “brother”.We Pashtuns salute them.

The case of Indira Gandhi and Sikhs was a separate issue. Lets not get into that.You are sounding it like God kills all those who struggle for the rights of their people and raise voice against tyranny and oppression. ZAB was the only genuine leader this soil has produced among the non Pakhtuns.The murder was a judicial and military murder by the “Khaleefa tul Muslimeen” dictator General Zia. Pakistani military being a servant of US never like any leader who has popular support as their chances for dictatorship becomes less and less. Today no one knows Zia but Bhutto will be remembered till Pakistan exists.

Akbar Bugti who was killed by the Pakistan army for raising his voice against the oppression of Pakistan army,had remained on the highest post of Chief minister ship / Governor ship in Balochistan.But as I have explained, as long as a person is satisfied to play the role of peon and slave of Punjabi dominated army, they are okay but the moment one start talking about the rights of their people, one is target killed by the Punjabi dominated army. The same is true for those who raise a voice against the army and Punjab.
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P) Not even in your dreams would you get freedom from Pakistan.Keep dreaming.

A) Well, the same was told to Bengalis too. Dude the laws of history does not work according to your wishful thinking.
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P) Nobody thought the MQM scums would turn out violent.

A) Do you mean ISI had created MQM to propagate Islam among Mahajirs or for the revival of “Shpag Nambaray".[Six points preached by the Tableeghi Jumaat to depoliticise the masses ]?
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P) When did I praise Taliban? They are against Pakistan.

A) By “you” I do not mean the second person singular pronoun in english grammar, I mean Pakistan. Just watch any Pakistani channel.They project Taliban of Afghanistan as the shadows of Sahaba Karam [companions of the prophet Mohammad] and Angels without feathers while those who are dismantling the terrorist network of Pakistan [TTP] as devils. Talk of double standard and hypocrisy of Punjabi military.
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P) TTP was always against us, their first leader who created them was Abdullah Mehsud, and he was against Pakistan.

A) TTP was originally the terrorist wing of ISI.The last meeting of TTP was conducted in F.C camp in FATA [an organ of Pakistani forces] to the media last year [2009]. I am sure you would have seen the program on Pakistani Private TV channel. Now one faction has turned against the state and that’s why now you see bombs in Punjab too now.Previosuly till all TTP was under ISI the blasts were just in Pakhtun and other provinces not in Punjab. Google it, the program is available. Give Imran Khan, Taliban and Afrasiab Khattak as the search in Youtube. Yesterday [15th March 2010] CM Punjab Shabaz Sharif said that “Taliban should not detonate bombs in Punjab”. How clearly this speaks of the fact that Pakistan has a serious ethnic and national issue base with axis as the interest of Punjab only.
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P) We didn't make Afghans orphans, Russia did, after that the Afghan warlords, and now America and NATO.

A) You did not do it.huh? What about the fact that;

Gen Naseerullah Babar formed the Taliban.
Afghan clothes were sewed in Quetta for Pakistani army soldiers in the nineties to send them to Kandahar
Taliban leadership are the trainees of Col. Imam.
A special budget for Afghanistan was approved in Ghulam Ishaq presidency to treat Afghanistan as a fifth province of Pakistan?
FATA was used to execute stategic depth against India and destabilise Afghanisatn as well as democratic govts in Pakistan....the list goes on and on….

Dude you need to know the facts instead of getting expert and well versed in propaganda. Better convey the message to your masters that the count down has begun for Pakistan, they should better revise and revisit their strategies.
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P) My master is Allah.

A) If your master is Allah then do not advocate the devil.
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P) Yes, it was Pakistan who gave Russia the permission to invade Afghanistan. Speaking of intervention, it was Zahir Shah who wanted to break away NWFP and FATA from Pakistan.

A) Russia was anti imperialist ally of Afghanistan and the govt in Afghanistan was also anti imperialist. This is well documented fact. Afghans and Pashtuns both do not accept Durand Line. We were only part of freedom struggle against British not part of Indian Division.Khudai Khidmatgars lead by Baacha Khan had boycotted the election for plebiscite and North and Central Pakhtunkhwa [NWFP and FATA] were by forced merged into Pakistan.There was no third option in plebiscite. We neither wanted to merge with India nor Pakistan.We are separate people and have always have been part of Afghanistan.
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P) Yes we gave nuke tech to Libya, Iran, and North Korea. But America gave nuke tech to Israel and is providing nuke tech to India, why should we let our enemies have the advantage?

A) Well I agree with this. Pakistan has sold nuclear technology to Libya, N.Korea and Iran. Now is the time to face the music. Thanks to the Pakhtun from Bhopal to make Pakistan a nuclear state.
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P) Karzai himself said that Pakistan's stability lies with a peaceful Afghanistan.

A) He meant that if you do not let us stabilise then do not dream of any stability in your country too. This is the meaning of calling Afghanistan and Pakistan as twin brothers too. If one suffers other has to suffer. He has not done a “neutral study” he knows and understands diplomatic language.
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P) Pakistan is concerned about the stability of Afghanistan.

A) Well I meant that Pakistan seems to be concerned about Afghanistan so much as if it has achieved all the benchmarks of stability and indictors of progress and prosperity in its own country. There is a concept called satire in English literature. I am sure you would have heard of it.
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P) Afghanistan does not have the right to let India use its soil against Pakistan.

A) Afghanistan is a sovereign country and will plan according to her national interests not according to the ISPR propaganda disseminated to the 170 million in a variety of styles with versatile colours of lie and flavours of falsehood to deceive the poor masses.
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P) You also forgot to add that India is the only country in the world with the largest number of aids infected people (increasing everyday), India has more than 400,000,000+ people living, sleeping, and shitting on the streets of its cities, also more than half of Indians population (population of India is more than 1 billion people) lives under the global poverty line, most Indians lack toilets in their homes, there are more than 10 million underage prostitutes in India (most of them being Muslim girls forced into sex slavery), India also has ethnic riots and ethnic violence and religious violence (for example Gujarat massacre where 4,000+ Muslims were killed and burned alive). India is not in Afghanistan to build "infrastructure", especially when they have more than enough poverty in their own filthy country! India has one simple reason to be in Afghanistan, and that is to destroy Pakistan.

A) These stats are worst for Pakistan. It is the question of magnitude. You can’t manage 170 million in Pakistan just imagine the problem and issues of India - world’s largest democracy with 1200 million people.

We Afghan across Durand line [lar aw bar] do not intervene into the internal affairs of any country. All these statistics is the problem of India and none of our business. The thing which is related to Afghans is what I mentioned. You can cross check it using any method of applying the falsification principle. Check the Afghanistan official website. Afghanistan is not what is projected in Pakistani media.
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P) Yep, and that is why Pakistan allowed more than 5 million Afghan refuges into Pakistan, and this is also the reason why Pakistan has more Pashtuns than Afghanistan does. After all, Pakistan is killing Pashtuns and this is the reason why Pashtun population is increasing in Pakistan.

A) Pakistan got money for the death and destruction of Afghans during the Afghan war and is now pocketing money from UN for their miserable lives.
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