Monday, April 13, 2009

PAKISTAN ARMY & TALIBAN ARE INTERTWINED IN THE HADITHS OF GHAZWATUL HIND (Part 2 of 3)



Pakistan had 30 million population in 1947 and in 2008 it has close to 160 million. In 2050 it will have 300 million – making it grow 900% in 100 years. With limited infrastructure, weak social and health facilities and hardly any new jobs, how will this huge population exist? Keep in mind that a whopping 40% of the men in Pakistan are being educated in unaffiliated madrassas (religious schools) that are spreading hatred and bigotry – the creators of Taliban. It is also from these religious schools that Pakistan pulls in its armed forces – after all it is the largest employer in Pakistan. Most of these madrassas are Deobandi – a fact discussed in part 1 of the article. The land mass of Pakistan is not increasing, neither is the fertility of the land to feed the army of mouths that are being produced in Pakistan.



Logically one can therefore ask – how does Pakistan aim to keep its hungry mouths content? How to stave off riots, discontentment and anger from unemployed youths? Add to that the fact that Pakistan is essentially at one end a feudal set up, run by the Punjabi majority and riding rough shod over the aspirations of their Sindi, Baluchi, Pushtun, Shias of Northern Region counterparts and on the other Pakistan Army essentially a Punjabi set up ready for coup anytime its interests are threatened and you have a recipe for a civil break-up.

It is RELIGIONthe biggest binding force where one can find succour from bad times, ill health and an unquestioning faith in the Almighty that will help them gloss over the decay, unemployment and decline in standards of living in their midst. There will be some elite schools and voices of reason – but they will be suppressed by the vast majority of these poorly fed, poorly read indoctrinated warriors of Allah. Kashmir used to bind Pakistan together, it has an emotional appeal even today, but not enough to bind the country together.

Hence the forces of Taliban – which were built by ISI – are now in control of 2/3 of area of Pakistan and are slowly advancing to the cities to take control of Pakistan – aided and abetted by Pakistan Army and ISI. While Islamization of Pakistan Army and state started with Gen. Zia, it was Nawaz Sharif that tried to bring in Sharia by the 15th Amendment during his rule. It is to be noted that Pakistan Army, the ISI and Taliban all want the same thing – that Sharia be used all over Pakistan. With civil society in Pakistan trying to move on liberal democratic norms, free press and judiciary based on courts and English laws – it is these very qualities that Pakistan Army and Taliban want to muzzle.

Bringing the religious renaissance in Pakistan courtesy the Pakistan Army & ISI. The citings of Hadiths are necessary to tie in the concept - so excuse me if brevity has to be sacrificed at the altar of reason.


KHORASAN:

Syed Saleem Shahzad writing in Asia Times Online states: Many Muslims believe that ancient Khorasan - which covers parts of modern-day Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tajikistan, Iran, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan - is the promised land from where they will secure the first victory in the end-of-time battle in which the final round, according to their beliefs, will be fought in Bilad-i-Sham (Palestine- Israel-Lebanon-Syria).

The geographical borders of Bilad-i-Sham-Khorasan extend from Samarkand in Uzbekistan to the small Malakand division in the northern fringe of Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) that includes the militant-dominated Swat Valley.

The ancient Khurasan / Khorasan was the last eastern province of the Persian Empire. Khorasan, in Persian, means the “land of the sunrise”, a natural synonym for East.

In modern day world the ancient Khorasan is divided into five central Asian countries i.e.

1. Iran
2. Afghanistan
3. Tajikistan
4. Turkmenistan
5. Uzbekistan

The largest part of the ancient Khorasan is in Afghanistan today. The present day cities of these modern countries would give a better idea of the geographical map of the ancient Khurasan. These cities include:

1. Nishapur and Tus in Iran.
2. Herat, Balkh, Ghazni and Kabul in Afghanistan
3. Khujand and Panjakent in Tajikistan
4. Merv and Sanjan in Turkmenistan
5. Samarqand and Bukhara in Uzbekistan

Ghulam Mohammad Ghubar, an ethnic Tajik scholar and historian from Afghanistan, talks of Proper Khorasan and Improper Khurasan in his book titled “Khurasan”. According to him, Proper Khurasan contained regions lying between Balkh (in the East), Merv (in the North), Sijistan (in the South), Nishapur (in the West) and Herat, known as The Pearl of Khurasan, in the center. While Improper Khurasan’s boundaries extended to Kabul and Ghazni in the East, Balochistan and Zabulistan in the South, Transoxiana and Khwarezm in the North and Damaghan and Gurgan in the West.

Khorasan plays an important role in the Islamic prophecies of end times.



Narrated by Hazrat Abdullah bin Masood (RA) that Prophet (SAW) said: "A Nation will come from the east with black flags and they will ask for some “Khair” (because of them being needy) but the people will not give them, then, they will fight and win over those people (who did not give them what they asked). Now the people will give them what they asked for but they will not accept it until they will hand it over to a person from my progeny who will fill this earth with justice just as it was previously filled with oppression and tyranny. So if anyone of you finds this nation (i.e. from the east with black flags) then you must join them even if you have to crawl over ice

Geographically there are only three Muslim countries, today, in exact east of Saudi Arabia i.e. Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. So it becomes easy to establish that whoever this army of black flags is, it belongs to one or more of these three countries.

Pakistan and ISI created Taliban to conform to the Hadiths to play around with. This has to be understood. To those who think this is far fetched – all I ask is to read on and then you can wait for events to unfold and see the truth as it happens or is made to happen.

Who are these warriors from the East? According to various Hadths:


1. They will come from the East
2. They will be from the race of Bani Ishaq/Al-e-Haroon/Bani-Israel or Nation of liberated slaves
3 They will come from the historical geographical region of Ancient Khorasan.
4. Their Leader will be wearing QUTWANI CLOAKS.
5. They will be from the tribe of QAIS (or KASH)
6. They will be from a poor Nation.
7. They are from a place with cold climate.
8. They will be from the TALIQAN( a city in Afghanistan ) region


Pakistan realized that Pushtuns and Kashmiris are a race that fulfills all these requirements – and thus gave them the black flags to authenticate the sayings in the Hadiths – thus giving the movement a historical almost Biblical force. After all, Taliban are told that they are they are the chosen people of the book.

And this is what Hamid Gul means when he states: “Pakistan and Islam are tied to each other. Pakistan was not formed for economic gains or other petty reasons rather it was formed to lead the world after providing a practical and workable Islamic model to govern people. No superpower can change destiny.” After all Hamid Gul – the Godfather of Taliban and Lashkar e Taiba – wants to be in charge of this destiny that he mentions.


The Taliban hail from the Pashtun ethnicity and have traditionally used two flags, a white flag with a black Shahada (Kalma) embossed for their government and diplomatic purposes and a reversal of this i.e. a black flag with a white Shahada embossed for their military. These types of black flags are also vividly seen across the tribal Pashtun areas that are now reportedly under the control of Pakistani Taliban.





SIDE NOTE: THE UK CONNECTION TO THE BLACK FLAGS:

Hizb-ut-Tahrir (HEADQUARTERED IN UK): Hizb-ut-Tahrir an International Sunni pan-Islamist political party whose goal is to unite all the Muslim countries to form a united Islamic state or Caliphate. Hizb-ut-Tahrir also boasts a black flag with a white Shahada embossed on it. Though a non-military organization, it has a vast political following.

Tableeghi Jama’at (HEADQUARTERED IN UK):
It is a Muslim missionary and revival movement, also having the same black flag. Many Pakistani cricketers are members of Tableeghi Jama’at (this to show that these things are not confined only to the poorer sections of society but has now permeated the very fabric of Pakistan cutting across socio-economic classes (SECs).

Of all the points mentioned above, point 2 is most debatable and this will be done in Part 3 of the article. A short synopsis here.

According to Hadith: Abu Huraira (RA) reported Allah’s Apostle (SAW) saying: You have heard about a city; the one side of which is in the land and the other is in the sea (Constantinople). They said: Allah’s Messenger, Yes. There upon he said: The last hour would come unless seventy thousand persons from Bani Ishaq would attack it. When they would land there, they will neither fight with weapons nor would show arrows but would only say: There is no god but Allah and Allah is the Greatest, that one side of it would fall. Thaur (one of the narrators) said: I think that he said: The part by the side of the ocean. Then they would say for the second time: There is no god but Allah and Allah is the Greatest that the second side would also fall, and they would say: There is no god but Allah and Allah is the Greatest, that the gates would be opened for them and they would enter therein and, they would be collecting spoils of war and distributing them amongst themselves that a noise would be heard and it would be said: Verily, Dajjal has come. And thus they would everything there and would turn to him.

How will the leader of Black Flags that will rise from Khorasan carry with him soldiers that are children of Israel to fight in Israel? This apparent paradox is solved when one realizes that these children of Israel are no longer Jews but are converted into Muslims.

In Jewish popular culture, the ten tribes disappeared from history, leaving only the tribes of Benjamin, Judah and Levi to become the ancestors of modern day Jews.Today, many ethnic groups claim descent from the lost tribes of Israel. Let us see who among them is located in the geographical Khurasan and are Muslims as well.

1. Bene-Ephraim in Southern India – are Jews.

2. Bnei-Menashe in Northeast India – are Jews.

3. Beta Israel in Ethiopia – are Jews.

4. Persian and Bukharan Jews in Isfahan, Iran – are Jews.

5. Igbo of Nigeria – are Jews.

6. Samaritans in Israel – are Jews

7. The Lemba tribe in South Africa – religious practice similar to Jews.

8. House of Israel in Ghana – are Jews

9. Pashtuns or Pathans in Afghanistan/Pakistan – are Muslims

10. Kashmiris in Indo-Pakistan – are Muslims

11. Jews of Kaifeng – are Jews


In all these ethnic groups, there are only two groups that are Muslims and only one group that is geographically present in Khurasan i.e. the Pathans of Afghanistan and Pakistan and Kashmiris. The only group that is warlike, undefeated and untamed throughout the course of history, staunch in religious fervor, filled with honor and pride and is unforgiving of its enemy; one that will fight its enemy until one of them is dead are the Pathans or Pushtuns.

How and why Pustuns are converted Jews is, as stated, will be Part 3. Suffice it to mention here: The exiled Afghan Royal (in Rome) family also traces its roots to ancient Israel, the tribe of Benjamin specifically.

Hence, we are now clear as to why & how Pakistan Army & ISI have created the Taliban? It fits the Hadiths.

What are the two ultimate goals as stated in the Hadiths?

1. Israel
2. India



ISRAEL & PALESTINE:

Abu Huraira (RA) says that Rasul-Ullah (SAW) said: (Armies carrying) black flags will come from Khurasan, no power will be able to stop them and they will finally reach Eela (Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem) where they will erect their flags.

The destruction of the Dome of the Rock (or the Aqsa Mosque) is the final requirement for the warriors from Khorasan to launch into a war with Israel that will see them win and put their black flags on the place where Al Aqsa mosque once stood.

INDIA: GHAZWATUL HIND:

The Hadiths that deal with Ghazwatul Hind has been declared as WEAK and a leading religious scholar has stated that any Muslim who believes in it is believing in something false. However the beauty of Islam is that no Hadith can be termed as false or untrue, only weak. Try telling that these Hadiths are false to a Taliban !!

The Conquest of Hind (INDIA) Prior to the Day of Judgement

At-Tuwaijiri's Ithaf al-Jama'a, Vol. 1, pp. 365-366.

Thawban - may Allah be pleased with him - that the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "Two groups of my umma Allah has protected from the hellfire: a group that will conquer India and a group that will be with 'Isa b. Maryam - 'alaihimas- salat was-salam." Reported Ahmad, an-Nisa'i, and at-Tabarani.


Na'im b. Hammad in al-Fitan reports that Abu Huraira - may Allah be pleased with him - said that the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) mentioned India and said, "A group of you will conquer India, Allah will open for them [India] until they come with its kings chained - Allah having forgiven their sins - when they return back [from India], they will find Ibn Maryam in Syria."


While Abu Huraira said, "The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) promised us the conquest of India. If I was to come across that I will spend my soul and wealth. If I am killed then I am among the best of martyrs. And if I return then I am Abu Huraira the freed." Reported by Ahmad, an-Nisa'i, and al-Hakim.


In another narration reported by Ahmad, Abu Huraira says, "I was told by my khalil, the truthful and believed in, the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) that there will be in this umma an expedition sent to Sind and Hind (India) ... ." The rest of the narration is the same but it has the following addition, "... then I will be released from the Hellfire." At-Tuwaijri remarks this addition explains what is meant by "the freed" above.

"An ansin raziallahu anhu qaala: "qaala rasoolallahe sallalaahu alaihe wassallam isaabatun taghzul hinda wa hayi takoonu ma'al mahdismohu Ahmadu"
( that Prophet Mohammad said, A group will struggle in India, and will be with the Mahdi, and the mahdi's name will be "Ahmad") -rawaahul Bokhari, fee tareekhehi


"qaala rasoolallahe sallalaahu alaihe wassallama yakhruju naasun minal mashriq, fa yootinoonal mahdi ya'ani sultaanahu"
( that prophet mohammad said, Such people will come out from the east, who will make way for the Mahdi, who will be their king )
- narrated by:
1) Abu daud, volume 2, baab khuroojul mahdi
2) Ibne maja, egyptian, page 519
3) bahaarul anwaar book 13 page 21


"Qala rasoolullah e sallalaaho alaihe wassalama isabatana min ummatihra humallaha minunnaare isaabatun taghzulhinda wa isaabatun takoonu ma'a eesa ibne maryama ilaihe"
( that prophet mohammad said, There are two groups in my "ummah" whom allah has freed from fire. One which performs struggle in India, and the one who is with the messiah )
- narrated by:
1) nassai volume page 52, baab ghazwatul hind
2) masand e ahmad ben hanbal, volume 5, page 78


Hence, India and Israel are in direct and immediate focus and one can hear this from Al-Qaeda, Taliban incessantly. Of course US is added to this apparent axis of evil according to Islam.

The logic:

At the beginning I had discussed the growing Paksitani population and it being in no position to absorb the growing numbers unless it does one of two things:

1. Ensure that population growth is reduced through family planning initiatives and help democracy grow that will attract more industries into Pakistan thus help in employment generation. Better schools to retain and attract talent.

Or

2. Ensure that population growth is thrust elsewhere. Enforce religion as a binding force that will keep military in perpetual power. To the east lies the vast and prosperous land of India, fertile and has a large ethnic Muslim population that can be merged. To the north are oil fields of Central Asia – and these are Muslim nations but do not have strong military or able rulers.


Since family planning is haraam (forbidden) in Islam (and this can be seen in their growth rate in host countries where they live, always outstripping the indigenous growth of the host nation, and also from the FATWA given by Deoband), I am betting my bottom dollar on the second option.

Asma Jehangir, Pervez Hoodboy , the secular apologists and indeed well meaning people around the world will pray for the first option – but I am sorry to state that this will never happen.

Pakistan’s military – the sole custodians of the state and entity of Pakistan do not think India can be a friend and that the lands of India (too fertile to let go) and waters of Kashmir are to be wrested back one way or another. Kargil was an attempt by Gen Musharraf to wrest Srinagar – and the latest incessant terrorist intrusion is an attempt by Gen Kayani to wrest Srinagar. This will continue unabated till Pakistan is made to understand thtat doing so is detrimental to its health. But Pakistan is in poor health and it does not care much – it is already in the top 10 failed nations of the world.

The US and Western countries are trying valiantly to make Pakistan (Military) understand that India is not their enemy – the Taliban are. I mean, are they kidding? The search for moderate Taliban is as elusive a concept as say a Tooth Fairy!



Will Pakistan Army that created Taliban fear it? It can tighten the screws on the movement anytime it wants and choke off its supply lines, men and logistics. The surrender at SWAT was not a “deliberate” loss for Pakistan Army, but a “deliberate” breather for Pakistan Army and letting Taliban rest and regroup. The more Pakistan Army were to fight its creations (Taliban) under the influence of America, the more chaos Pakistan will bring on itself internally. The choices facing US / NATO forces are Hobson’s choices. If India keeps quiet and bows down to the pressure of the Americans to start a dialogue with Pakistan without it taking any action on 26/11 – PAKISTAN wins !

Hence, onto Taliban and Talibanization of Pakistan. Hence the complicity between Paksitan Army, ISI and Taliban and hence Pakistan is not going to cut off its ties with the Taliban.

The reality is that both – the Taliban and the jihadis on one side and the Pakistan Army, have the same slogan — jihad fi’sbillah – jihad in the name of Allah.

INDIA will have to think of Pakistan as a radicalized Taliban nation in the making. The children in Pakistan are getting indoctrinated at a very early age
- the Deobandi teaching tells them that they cannot even sit with Shias to have meals - what will they think of Jews / Christians / Hindus? The hate teaching is deliberately perpetuated.

While the global civilized world is talking of working together, teaching assimilation and respect for other cultures, Pakistan is teaching its young hate and bigotry.



A survey amongst Pakistan Army on their thoughts on Talibanization of Pakistan will surely throw up interesting results. Terror wins in Pakistan hands down - after all it is state sanctioned.

59 comments:

Anonymous said...

Very disturbing analysis.

fa said...

bua- enough about pakistan, why dont you write something about india for a change?

what about the terrorists in india, such as naxalites who have about 25 percent of india under their influence.

Anonymous said...

You have hit the nail on its head, again, IuA. What is more disturbing is the studpidty that goes around in India. How many Indians are aware of all such things? Apart from ignorance, we Indians have very high degree of tolerance for attacks from Pakistan. Why can't Pakistan be crushed and we solve our problems once for ever. That country has caused so much of problems to us, and here we are with our Gandhian Idology, turning the other cheek - thats the reason why the attacks just dont stop. The present politicians are just incapable (excfept for Modi) of meeting the challenges and as a society, we dont care enough for this things ... no wonder we are under foreign rule for so long...

Anonymous said...

Hey Fa,

This blog will write about Pakistan - what's getting your goat?

You wanna know about Naxalites etc, go to Pak blogs on India - you will find your happiness there.

jk71 said...

The TNSM chief Sufi Mohammad said today (14th Apr 09) that once Sharia is implemented in Swat and Malakand it would soon after be extended to other parts of the country.

Looks like the Sharia and Talibanization has started in right earnest BuA.

BENGAL UNDER ATTACK said...

PAGING MAX & A.H. - my earliest critics and commentators .... Wait for your erudite comments.

Kannan said...

BuA,.....excellent..
Your analysis and narration is very very similar to but not alike Dan Brown.
His (legitimate)target is Catholic Vatican Mafia. Yours is the Taliban.
I wish I could verify these evil prophesies myself..but I can't imagine wasting my time reading their shitty Qurans and hadidths..that turns engineers,doctors to cold blooded murderers and child molesters.

M.Q. said...

Kannan ... you Indians will make me laugh. BuA very very near Dan Brown ... ha ha ha.

However let me tell you this: BuA with this article though, has raised his bar several levels. It is very very near the truth.

But so what? Can you stop the Taliban coming into Kashmir - you cannot. You guys are going to lose Kashmir - and your Congress Govt is party to this.

Hard to believe - well it was Nehru that brought Kashmir up in UN. It was Indira Gandhi that let go 90,000 Pakistan soldiers which could have solved the Kashmir issue in favour of Indians once and for all. And then Rajiv Gandhi did not attack Pakistan and kill off its nuclear reactors after getting a blank cheque from the Israelis. And now when Rahul Gandhi comes - he will hand over Kashmir to Taliban. Laugh - but wait it see it happen !!!

Anonymous said...

About the prophecies of Ghazwatul Hind, it forms a small and insignificant part of the texts. It is a secondary commentary on what apparently Muhammad said and is not used in most referencing to base with the laws of Islam.

I've not done in depth studies into this part of the texts but what you say covers it all. It speaks about the Muslims conquering Sind and Hind (Sind is already conquered in full).

In fact some scholars like Ibn Kathir point to Mughal rulers assuming that they are carrying out the prophecies when the reached Indian cities like As-Sumaat (I think it lies somewhere in Gujarat). This was quite hardheld in the mind of Mahmud. But again this isn't my field of study specifically so I'm just saying what I know.

I personally feel that these prophecy Hadiths were written or added in many years after Muhammad died by authors who had nothing to do with him.

In my opinion the verses Muslims would prefer using are the many that profess Muhammad's sheer hatred for idolatory - which is an integral part of hinduism. Such verses are more commonly linked to Muslim peoples' duty to rid the world of Idolators. And the largest group of Idolators in this world are Hindus - in India largely.

I don't think you're short of examples for this, but here's one worth noting:


When Muhammad finally conquered Mecca in 631 AD, he allegedly entered the Ka'ba and destroyed the 360 idols in its precincts shouting

" Falsehood is destroyed, truth prevails "

(All Muslims like to emulate Muhammad. And after Taliban blew up the Bamiyan statues, that's exactly what they shouted)

Anonymous said...

Anon above:

"I personally feel that these prophecy Hadiths were written or added in many years after Muhammad died by authors who had nothing to do with him."

Well the article does say that these Hadiths are thus called WEAK HADITHS - yet they are held as TRUE by the Salafi / Deoband / Wahabbi madaris.

Ali.mostaque said...

.
.
The following is a commentary on articles 1 and 2 of your posting. I will make generalized observations about your position in those two articles, and point by point comments as I have done before slowly.

What you are doing is good Bua, highlighting an issue in a non emotive manner about a topic which is critical for the whole of South Asia. Though such observations are best made by people who are clearly identifiable, and do not hide behind a pseudonym. You could be a RAW front, and it is well known that intelligence agencies run many websites on the internet, especially the more glossy blogs and big websites, to ADVERTISE their viewpoint, to educate others of their point of view, to gather intelligence, to gauge public opinion....and as a simple "paper clip" operation collecting names and database details of possible "subversive people" whose opinions do not match the opinions of the host agency. This is especially the case with the USA, UK and some other advanced police states, where huge investments have been made in this direction. Propaganda and the control of information is POWER..........................and there are many people obsessed with power.

On the other hand discourse about sensitive issues and making the public aware of them is not a bad thing, if constructive debate can be generated by such things; this is good for a democracy. I enter this debate in this spirit and light.

As I understand it in a rather generalized sweeping statement, you Bua and people in Indian security and intelligence (they are writing similar articles-------Vikram Sood, B. Raman--but not exactly like you) feel that the Taliban is about to take over Pakistan. Then they will get control of the 50 or so Pakistan nukes, and then wage jehad against India, because for fundamentalist Muslims from South Asia that is their original and only goal. Further there is a religious and historical basis for this outcome from Muslims. This however is not an original narrative but a variation of what has been already stated by many in the West in the USA, and UK especially............and for them the basis and rational for eventual INTERVENTION IN PAKISTAN, jointly by the USA, UK the old colonial power, NATO and India. The logical outcome argued for in such a narrative, but for the need to drum up enough fear and apprehension within people so that such an eventual course is taken. There after occupy Pakistan, divide it along ethnic lines, and of course relieve the country of its nuke bomb capacities.

I will try and look at the argument from India's point of view only...and argue from there.

M.A.K. said...

Ali,

What do u think about the authenticity of these Hadiths? Why are they being used by Deoband even if they are called WEAK Hadiths?

Is it because it has "military use" and hence inalienable to ISI (covert - S Division)?

As a Muslim (non-practicing as you call yourself) - pls let us have your dispassionate view.

Thanks

Anonymous said...

BuA

Thank you very much for this article. At least to me, it makes it very clear what is the root cause - I know about religious indoctrinations - hence this is of prime importance to me.

More power to you. And looking forward to more incisive articles.

Best

A Patriot

Anonymous said...

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/sikhs-pay-rs-2-crore-as-tax-to-taliban-in-pak/90471-2.html

Well, the link above should be an eyeopener or sorts to all Non Muslims living in Pakistan. Jizya is the Poll-Tax for living in a Muslim Dominated Land where the Political and Other Powers rest with the Muslims. Pakistan takes pride in calling itself The Islamic State of Pakistan.

Ali.mostaque said...

.
.

That India should be concerned about the developments in Pakistan and Afghanistan is perfectly legitimate, nobody rational could argue otherwise; India certainly has the right to be proactive and should seek to influence outcomes in these countries which are favorable to INDIA. This is a normal desire for an emerging power which is carefully seeking its rightful position in its "sphere' of the world.

1. Indian concerns in the Afghan/Pak because that is the area which provided the base for the Muslim rule of especially North India for about 700 years, including good and bad periods of Muslim rule. The historical precedence, and that possibly history might here repeat itself. In addition as Bua argues there is a Muslim religious zeal and underpinning of this general desire, disseminated especially by fundamentalist Deobandi groups based in Pakistan mainly, who have infiltrated the mechanisms of state power and especially the army in that country.

2. Pakistan has initiated and waged four illegal wars against India. Pakistan fared badly in all of them, and has since never been apologetic about them, in fact quite the contrary.

3.Pakistan is failed state number 9 and could implode under the burden and pressure of a variety of socio-economic problems as the years progress (population explosion, poor economic performance, feudal post-colonial society.........), posing India with with many security problems as a neighbor.

4. Pakistan could be taken over by hardline Islamic fundamentalists, and their control of Pakistan's nuclear bomb's there after. Whilst the current Pakistan civilian/military authorities understand to a certain extent the norms of international law, the hardline Islamic fundamentalists are not constrained by such niceties.

5. In Kashmir the insurgency and terrorism backed extensively by Pakistan has claimed the lives of between 50---80,000 civilians and security personnel of India. The cost of maintaining 500,000 security personnel is very high for India, into the billions of $.

6. There have been a rise in the number of terrorist incidents in the rest of India which many in Indian security feel is the work of Pakistan's ISI.

7. India invested heavily into the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan for 7 years running from 1994---2002, against the Pakistan backed Taliban and are concerned if there is a Taliban resurgence in that theater which leads them eventually prevail in that country.

8. Each action has an opposite reaction--------Pakistan is an integral part of the South Asian community of countries with a shared history, race, culture and language. That fundamentalism in Pakistan may lead to the rise of fundamentalism and communalism in India as well, which will of course create greater stresses and strains in the fabric and cohesion of India, a complex multi-racial large democracy and an emerging power.

Anonymous said...

Ali,

Well summed up and appreciated.

Sikhs paid up didn't they - well, now Hindu Pandits will have to pay too in 10 years time as Omar Abdullah and Rahul Gandhi team up to break Kashmir away from INDIA.


MQ - I agree 100% when you write : "Can you stop the Taliban coming into Kashmir - you cannot. You guys are going to lose Kashmir - and your Congress Govt is party to this.

Hard to believe - well it was Nehru that brought Kashmir up in UN. It was Indira Gandhi that let go 90,000 Pakistan soldiers which could have solved the Kashmir issue in favour of Indians once and for all. And then Rajiv Gandhi did not attack Pakistan and kill off its nuclear reactors after getting a blank cheque from the Israelis. And now when Rahul Gandhi comes - he will hand over Kashmir to Taliban. Laugh - but wait it see it happen !!"

BuA - pl write a follow up article on Kashmir as :

a. Sajjad Lone is standing for elections (a ploy I think - if we gets elected he will tell others to join in and when the get majority in state - 2/3 - they make seek secession)

b) Kasav telling he was trained by Pak Army to take over J&K (old story as they are all trained to take over J&K)

Thanks

Anonymous said...

anon, all Hadiths are held true, its just whether weak or strong. When Muslims find a use for a specific Hadith verse, they simply dig it out from the dust and apply it, irrespective of it#s standing in terms of logic.

You may wanna wonder why the verses I quoted earlier (in fact there are several in the Bukhari) describing Muhammad advocating drinking Camel urine as a medicine are not and have not been unearthed by any Islamic organization.

Well, because it's gross. Many Muslims in fact don't know about it they criticize Hindus for drinking cow urine!

But say in the future some scientific study shows that Camel's urine is the best cure for cancer, Muslims will go ga-ga by proclaiming the Hadith as the king of all Medical texts. Mysteriously those verses will be unearthed from the dirt for the best fitting.

That is Islam.

Anonymous said...

Anon above,

Completely agree with you.

Islam tries to "best fit" the Hadiths to anything that suits their purpose. And I guess your example of curing cancer with camel urine aptly shows that - when and it it were ever proved.

On similar vein, this article also shows how obscure and weak Hadiths are used by Muslims for furthering their cause - spl Pak Army & ISI - the two most virulent and terrorist spewing entity in the whole world.

Anonymous said...

Yes anon, as I told these Mullahs don't care whether weak or strong if they have a good use for it. Deoband has a motive to use these distorted predictions for their own motives and so they are doing it. In fact those who proclaim it "weak" themselves are apologetic Muslims.

When they have no use for a Hadith, they will easily proclaim it as weak and unsuitable. However later if a need arises they will say "it's a Hadith so it has to be considered / followed". Thats the way it is for these scumbags.

And that scumbag who was screaming above that Islam does not approve of forced conversions has not come back with answers.

I don't blame him. He cannot. Simple as that. It proves however he is a good minion of a book. He was born into it and he's following it to the extent his Mullah taught him (includes the anti-idolatory verses but ecludes the verses on camel urine) - and defending it on any turf he can get with full fervour.

But that's the furthest he can go when arguing with a person with no "emotional attachments" and "apologetic feelings" about a text, who reads it and makes sense out of it the way an ordinary human should. Not interpreting and twisting it around in funny ways for the best fit.

Ali.mostaque said...

.
.
So lets go through the points one by one:

1. Indian concerns in the Afghan/Pak theater because that is the area which provided the base for the Muslim rule of especially North India for about 700 years, including good and bad periods of Muslim rule. The historical precedence, and that possibly history might here repeat itself. In addition as Bua argues there is a Muslim religious zeal and underpinning of this general desire, disseminated especially by fundamentalist Deobandi groups based in Pakistan mainly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deobandi), who have infiltrated the mechanisms of state power and especially the army in that country.

Does history repeat itself, or this merely an overused tired cliche?

1. France and the UK have at war with each ever since the Normans from Northern France, ascended into power in England in 1066, and various disputes arose as to who actually was the real king of France, and exactly which parts of France were under the French kings domain and which under the "English" king. This dispute continued into the 19th century, after 800 years, over issues of Roman Catholicism vs English protestantism, and the rivalry around the globe of two expanding European based empires.

But now in the 21st century both nations are successful, prosperous DEMOCRACIES (Democracies seldom fight each other--never). Both nations are big players in the EU, and operate together under NATO. There is ample, and extensive economic, cultural, intellectual, security and political interlinkages between the two former foes....to the point where if one raises the possibility of a future conflict between the two nations, it would be laughed off as inconceivable, so here history will not repeat itself.......in fact more likely they will submerge into a superstate, as is gradually happening now.

2. Mongolia and China have been in conflict for many centuries. From 600 BC into 1300 AD, for 1700 years various nomadic Iranian and then later, Altaic-Turkic tribes had attacked the rich productive states of China for plunder and exploitation, hence the construction of the Chinese wall. But now in the 21st century, where China is the second largest economy on earth, the largest industrial power with a population of 1.3 billion it is inconceivable that those same Mongolian, Siberian based tribes could launch an attack against China........simply impossible. China through its sheer size, and SUCCESS economically, and its effective state management/governance of China will crush any such incursion from that direction. History will not repeat itself here.

3. Turkey and Europe. The Turks for 300 years from 1400 to 1700 threatened to overrun Europe.....at the Gates of Vienna etc. Turkey at one time was a superpower, especially in the 1600 century. But now Turkey is a Third World nation, and has an economy which is 15th largest in the world, and at most Turkey can aspire to be a regional power in the future, but never again a superpower. History has moved on and Turkey is prospering with an expanding middle class, with greater linkages with Europe, politically, economically, culturally and psychologically...and Turkey is part of NATO. There is no talk of reconquering Europe in Turkey, but rather acting as a bridge between Europe and the Middle East. So history definitely won't repeat itself here, because Turkey wisely and generously has between coopted into the European system quite extensively.

4. Italy and the Mediterranean...Ditto. The Roman Empire, and modern Europe.

5. Ditto Arab countries, and Europe...........The most powerful Arab nations have problems dealing with tiny Israel. Quite the contrary the Arabs have to passively watch whilst the ethnic Arabs get slaughtered by the powerful Israeli military machine.

No history does not always repeat itself, with such examples.

I would apply the above examples in various ways with India's situation now, in relation to Pakistan Afghanistan.

i) India's sheer strength will deter any future aggressor, and therefore India should focus on rapidly developing into becoming even more powerful economically and militarily. There is absolutely very little utility fretting unnecessarily about scenarios which may not happen with neighbors, there's only so much India can do with Pakistan and Afghanistan. The smart thing to do is focus on making India strong and powerful, as a state and as a military power, so that any entity be it state or non-state think twice before taking on India whether in mass warefare, or asymmetrical warefare. The Maoist ascendancy in Nepal is not good for India, and a Taliban ascendancy in Pakistan can't be good for India, for sure! But work with an optimistic out look; the LTTE is about to be totally defeated in Sri Lanka, and there is a pro-Indian government in power in Bangladesh which is fully backed by the military in that country...........these are good developments to work on, and further reinforce, through greater regional security ties, and economical ties etc.

i) As with the above examples we see that former foes, centuries old foes have entered into mutual binding regional arrangements in various spheres such as trade, culture, politics and security. Such arrangements between neighbors make it near impossible for conflict between such former adversaries.....as it would be mutually destructive. India can also do the same with her neighbors through SAARC, at an accelerated speed, and outside of SAARC, specially in relation to the special case of Pakistan sign a FTA, and legalize the LoC.

The only question remains is, is there a government with the will and drive to carry through the necessary measures as stated above to properly secure India both within as a successful country, and without with India's neighbors.

The answer I am afraid is negative. It is approaching 62 years of independence, and still there has been no significant move towards peace between the two neighbors, and India suffers from many internal weaknesses which could seriously challenge the cohesion of the state in the future.....you could worry as much as you like about possible negative developments with neighbors in the future, but as an Indian it is much more prudent to focus on the short comings that really do exist now in Indian society which require urgent full focus and rectification. That is where you invest your energies first:

1. Terrorism---Pakistan based/Kashmir based/MaoistNaxal, NorthEast based.
2. Religious Intolerance/BJP.
3. Water Shortage/non monsoon season especially
4. Unequal economic development....poor economic planning. 840 million with minimal income.55 billionaires.
5. Corruption.
6. Capital flight-----$1.5 trillion to 3 trillion.
7. Devalued Currency.
8. Unemployment.....hiring system.
9. Low Education.investment......poor quality education....poor quality teachers....poor quality students.........loss of the best to foreign countries. Lack of investment into research...R&D.
10.Weak Foreign Policy.........inconsistent foreign policy....the failure of SAARC, and relations with neighbors especially Pakistan. Aspires to be the regional power, is the regional power but no clear leadership.
11. Poorly performing agricultural sector./farmer debts/low investment and innovation.
12. RAW misadventures.
13..Low budget to GDP ratio....only 15% of GDP, whereas the center budget should be closer to 30% and state/Municipal budgets another 10%.
14. Foreign interference...USA/UK.........behind the scenes through the post-colonial elite.
15. Rapid population growth.
16. Poor governance.....political parties/bureaucracy/poor leadership.
17. Poor environmental policies/ enforcement and awareness by public--state and national.
18. Post colonial elite...which has no fealty to India.......exemplified by capital flight.
19. Poor infrastructure.
20. Small industrial base...low investment in this sector.
21. Weak financial system.
22. Indian bureaucracy...red tape.
23. Backward society and the inherent problems of backward society, culturally and psychologically........religious obscurantism and fatalism.
24. Indian colonial police......corruption and criminality.
25. Cultural stagnation....crass trash Western copy Hindi movies etc.
26. Social harmony and value......soaring crime rates etc....standard social norms.


The Congress party is a shell of its former self, striving to retain power for the sake of being in power. It processes and delivers meaningless blurry platitudes to the masses, with no political ideological conviction but more likely good doses of cynicism. A party that has been power too often too long, and it has become tired and corrupted by it. The Party is run by Sonia Gandhi an Italian lady who has no educational qualifications of substance, and is slowly grooming her son, a fickle playboy in for the good life to be the next leader of the country as PM. The Congress Party misses the point, with their fixation with the Gandhi dynasty, that with the anti-incumbency vote the common Indian masses are looking at the performance of a government, and not so much famous family name tags....if only the Congresses rank and file recognized this truth, then the party could still remain relevant in the 21st century rather than be pushed into the margins of history by more assertive regional, and other central parties like the BJP.

The BJP is a communal party that appeared mysteriously from nowhere in the 1990's, and used communalism as the sole vehicle to attain power. It has close linkages with Israel, one of the most dangerous manipulative little states on earth (see what they are doing to the USA)......wiser counsel surely would have advised to keep well clear of Israel, and extremist NRI groups from the UK, and USA. It is a dangerous destabilizing polarizing new force in Indian politics which attracts a lot of young educated people disillusioned by the "many failures" of India, and mesmerized by the possibility of a rampant assertive India. In the history of the world there has never been a successful far right party, and logically a country like India with its intricate complex "national and local issues" requires sophisticated governments with a real grasp of problems rather than the solutions of the mere peddlers of lynch mobs and populist rabblerousers. The erection of the RAM temple will not begin to solve the complex and challenging problems India faces as mentioned above, indeed such political theater diverts public attention away from these very pressing issues. "Budhiya" Advani is 81 and should have retired to an old peoples home, rather than live through the neurosis of partition through the BJP, and possibly Arun Jaitley should have taken his place by now.

You make your own country strong, and then you think about your neighborhood. India suffers from a post-colonial elite which is detached and disconnected from ordinary Indians, and this fact is verified by the fact that the majority of their wealth is not invested into India, their country which helped them acquire this immense wealth, but into foreign obscure tax heavens. Unless you have a elite working for the country how can you begin to solve the fundamental challenges of India and the region. Clearly you can't with the present situation...and so a peaceful revolution needs to take place at the top, which give India more effective governments and more effective policies.

Ali.mostaque said...

Well Bua did you visit the RSS in Pune or the Siv Sena in Mumbai? What instructions did they give you?


1. ALI MOSTAQUE - Everytime I write an article I was accused of being a RAW agent - here and in other forums, specially in Ahmedquraishi.com - where they thought I was a "group of agents" - I must have irked them so much. Of course I wrote there earlier not under BuA. :).

Relax Bua, you are Indian after all and if someone accuses you of being RAW you should be proud of it, and not get defensive........your writing style, and opinions convey certain perceptions of you...why not write under your original name, after all Vikram Sood does as does B Raman. I don't read the comments section of AHMEDQURAISH....it is heavily monotone and basic, as is your comments section, but for the opportunity to have a "conversation" with you, as a fellow blogger on the same medium, with a Bengali like me.

I myself have been variously accused of being CIA, MI6 and even KGB....(amongst other things)I sometimes surf Russian ladies romance sites, and some other Russian sites.......and in addition my writing around security for the 13 years also arouses that type of suspicion........Oh he must have a intelligence handler.....but its ok, I am not offended by such accusations, but I view it as a very small complement to my "analysis" and writing style. I think when you focus on such topics obviously you are going to get the blatant silly accusations but take it in your stride.

But do remember that it is a fact that many of the more professional glossy website/blog are run by various intelligence organizations.....thats not a myth.

Jai Shri 3.1428571 said...

Mr ALI MOSTAQUE.

I disagree with your views and on one major point I agree with BuA - the Pakis have unleashed low cost models (terrorists) to fight our high cost models (army).

26th March 2009: At the end of the five-day Kupwara encounter in KASHMIR that killed eight Army personnel and 17 Lashkar (LeT) operatives, all evidence points to “extremely sophisticated planning and logistics” behind the biggest infiltration attempt across the Line of Control.

Army chief General Deepak Kapoor said the high casualties of Indian Special Forces — all eight from the crack 1 Para — indicated a “high level of military training.”

on March 21, Major Mohit Sharma along with a party of para commandos, decided to go deep inside the Hafruda forests. A group of militants, however, had been hiding over the ridge — which gave them an immediate advantage. Major Sharma and three of his men were killed in the firefight.

By Monday, the Army had sent out dozens of parties inside Hafruda, expanding the operation to almost an area of 20 sq km. Fierce gunbattles raged across the area. Close-quarter encounters took place at two places — one inside the Hafruda forests and another in Drangyari. Five militants were killed while four Army men, Havaldar Rakesh Kumar, Nayak Sanjay Anna and Para troopers Manoj Kumar and Shabir Ahmad, were killed. All were officers and men from the Para unit — equipped with AK 47 and Israeli Tavor rifles, new generation night-sights and tracking equipment.

On Tuesday, the troops were again in control and the cordon had been tightened around the militants holed up in Hafruda. Seven militants were killed that day.

Army officials said they found this group of infiltrators “exceptionally trained” and “well-kitted” wearing multilayered warm clothing, jackets, snowshoes and even armed with ice axes.
--------------------

So Mr ALI,

These were our best special forces - some new, some veterans that got killed that day. Not to forget Commando Unnikrishnan in Mumbai. These are important high cost assets for us. And if we debunk the conspiracy theories, then these low cost Kasavs killed Karkare and his forces too.

Hence, at least in Kupwara, it was a battle of low cost terrorists from Pakistan (well trained and hence costs incurred while training and equipping - but Pak Army kept a safe distance from it), but it did end up killing some of our best forces.

Keep plugging away on a regular basis, then India will be bleeding heavily.

Hence I endorse the idea of Hindu religious warriors - Dogras, Kukis, Sherpas, Nagas - well versed in mountain warfare, lethal and above all Hindus. We maybe training them in hand to hand combat - martial arts (who knows :)) - and waiting for a favorable government and situation before Paksitan realizes what has hit them.

So Ali, its not a Nintendo, it more like Wii - only the nanchuks are real!

Ali.mostaque said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48QpRfIWxY&feature=channelEnjoy this Aussie documentary, to see where the real problem is with Indian "National security".....given the spate of arms purchases recently, obviously the old habits haven't disappeared.....they persist.

I'll comment later with Jai Shree..

Ali.mostaque said...

Well Jai Shri............you've got the numbers game going there.

If it took the Indian army 5 days to deal with insurgents, who were equipped with the latest equipment, and trained to the highest caliber, and a good deal of them died then logically that is not a small low cost loss for Pakistan, because training men in the art of warefare has cost as does equipping them.......its not something Pakistan could do on every ocassion......and it is still possible that these insurgents/terrorists were regular Pakistani soldiers in civilian garb....as happened in 1947, and 1999 Kargil.

Difficult to see how a "peoples militia" made up of mountain Hindu people would fare better against such an opposition again in the future. Surely the regular army would be called in wouldn't they eventually if it was a 5 day battle?

In most serious encounters the regular army is called in....standard procedure isn't it?

Let me cite East Pakistan 1971 again:

Lets talk about East Pakistan, where the Pakistan army armed "patriotic Pakistanis" as Razakers to fight alongside the regular army and also do various rear guard duties to relieve the Pakistan Occupation army...about 40,000 of them...what happened?.......a lot of these Razakers from the local area, used their new position to settle old scores against people who they did not personally like, nothing to do with the fact that they might be collaborating with the Mukti Bahini......unprofessionalism and personal prejudice...and many of the 3,000,000 killed in East Pakistan by the Pakistan army could have in fact have been killed by the Razakers...which explains the hatred against them now in Bangladesh.

Don't look at situations merely in terms of achieving absolute military domination...there is also the issue of the hearts and minds campaign, and propaganda campaign, which through the use of the Razakers in East Pakistan and the bad behavior of the Pakistani army led to the defeat of the Pakistan army in 9 months.

What is the Iranian military loss in Kashmir since 1990? Excluding Kargil. I cannot imagine it to be that high....in 2008 85 losses correct........so nothing to worry about.....its just one incident.

Regular army 1,500,000.
Reserve about 1,500,000???
Paramilitary 4,000,000 with reserve, so the recent losses and though sad of course is not about to seriously challenge the total trained pool of the entire military.

BENGAL UNDER ATTACK said...

I was away in a city in Maharashtra on work - and elections were taking place in that searing heat - and it was a dry day (acloholic dry day). The waiter came to my room and said not to worry, we will serve you your choice of liquor in the room. Jai Ho - INDIA.(and no, I did not take him up on that offer).

On a serious note - let me reply to some of the comments made.

1. ALI MOSTAQUE - Everytime I write an article I was accused of being a RAW agent - here and in other forums, specially in Ahmedquraishi.com - where they thought I was a "group of agents" - I must have irked them so much. Of course I wrote there earlier not under BuA. :).

2. YES - these Hadiths of GHAZWATUL HIND are not only WEAK but are blatantly FALSE. I agree with the learned ANON here - that these Hadiths on Ghazwatul Hind were not at all spoken words of Prophet Mohammad but in fact were written far far later by "opportunist" people - and these are being utilized by Deoband for its nefarious activities - terrorist training and nurseries. In fact Deoband in UP dreams of the day when Taliban will come from Pakistan to liberate India and UP from Hindu rule - that is their main agenda.

3. I wanted to state here, when I write Pakistan Army & ISI - I do not mean the whole apparatus - but the radicalized portion and it is anyone's guess what % of the force is radicalized. I will assume a lot, as the better ones who try to bring in professionalism get bumped off from time to time and the extremem radicalized ones get to stay on. And to assuage the US, a couple of the radicalized are shoved off to cold storage only to be later found in the arms of LeT or some other terror groups.

4. People say and write with authority that Taliban are a rag tag bunch and cannot and will not take over Pakistan - depends on whose version of truth is more colorful or verifiable.

5. The one thing I admire about people like Hamid Gul, Sufi Mohammad et al - is their honesty in declaring their intention - that of breaking Hindustan and taking Kashmir. Every Jehadi states the same. And unless an extreme right wing organization releases its Hindu religious warriors in Kashmir - adept at jungle / mountainous warfare - Kashmir will be lost.

The 5th point is to be understood. The Pakis have unleashed war on India thru their low cost Kasavs to take on India's high cost military personnel.

An alternative has to be well thought out - long term, sustainable and leading to no blowback into India in future.

Anonymous said...

(sorry had to edit a bit - BuA)

WRITTEN BY ALI MOSTAQUE:

"3. I wanted to state here, when I write Pakistan Army & ISI - I do not mean the whole apparatus - but the radicalized portion and it is anyone's guess what % of the force is radicalized. I will assume a lot, as the better ones who try to bring in professionalism get bumped off from time to time and the extreme radicalized ones get to stay on. And to assuage the US, a couple of the radicalized are shoved off to cold storage only to be later found in the arms of LeT or some other terror groups."There are about 20,000 officers in the Pakistan army, and the senior ones get training in the UK, and of course USA. Some form of screening is done of these senior officers. Not all the senior officers since Zia ul Haq are like Zia. In an interval of 10 years between 1988---1998 there wasn't a religiously orientated Head of the army, and Kiyani does not seem to be Deobandi, but more likely with his extensive training in the USA, an American stooge.

Some sections of America with Israel would obviously like to see a fundie military take over of Pakistan, because that gives them a rational for attacking and occupying Pakistan, and no doubt there may be some Indians like yourself who would relish that such a prospect..........

and all I would say to that is that whilst the USA and Israel are a safe distant away from Pakistan and can't be harmed, India is a neighbor of Pakistan........AND the reason why India declined several Israeli requests for joint attacks against Pakistan in the 1980's...the rational and logic of that hasn't changed since.

Also taking the scenario a little further into an advanced level into the future, who says the Israelis/Americans/British after using India to attack Pakistan and occupy it will stop at Pakistan's border? Remember what happened to the Maratha empire after Tipu Sultan was dealt with.

"4. People say and write with authority that Taliban are a rag tag bunch and cannot and will not take over Pakistan - depends on whose version of truth is more colorful or verifiable.Yes indeed, so we should not be too complacent about that. Though logically they shouldn't if they didn't succeed after 7 years of hard fighting in Afghanistan, then they shouldn't in Pakistan either........though of course again that is a bogey certain sections of America with Israel would like to propagate.......and more perversely certain prominent Pakistanis to milk more aid $ for their Swiss accounts.

"5. The one thing I admire people like Hamid Gul, Sufi Mohammad et al - is their honesty in declaring their intention - that of breaking Hindustan and taking Kashmir. Every Jehadi states the same.

So we see who you met in Maharastra....did you meet your Israeli MOSSAD handler too! Thats where the Bene Israel were concentrated at one time.

Yes that really would be a South Asian regional solution. Propagate the nutjobs in Pakistan as some kind of noble warriors in order to raise a nutjob extremist militia in India. In the medieval era this type of "peoples militia" was OK, but in the modern era most definitely not.......discipline and organization is what you need in such situations...obviously the irregular fighter has certain advantages, BUT the overall advantages goes to the organized state military and the regular army if used properly.

Also depends on how you define success. In my opinion the Indian military have been successful......they have effectively controlled the insurgency from Pakistan, AND most Kashmiris are happy to be part of India still, after 20 years of Pakistani based insurgency in that part......clearly in a huge country like India you possibly could not seal the border 100%......its imposible, more so from terrorist ops that originate from India.

Lets talk about East Pakistan, where the Pakistan army armed "patriotic Pakistanis" as Razakers to fight alongside the regular army and also do various rear guard duties to relieve the Pakistan Occupation army...about 40,000 of them...what happened?.......a lot of these Razakers from the local area, used their new position to settle old scores against people who they did not personally like, nothing to do with the fact that they might be collaborating with the Mukti Bahini......unprofessionalism and personal prejudice...and many of the 3,000,000 killed in East Pakistan by the Pakistan army could have in fact have been killed by the Razakers...which explains the hatred against them now in Bangladesh.

Bua, don't look at situations merely in terms of achieving military ABSOLUTE GOALS...there is also the issue of the hearts and minds campaign, and propaganda campaign, which through the use of the Razakers in East Pakistan and the bad behaviour of the Pakistan army led to the defeat of the Pakistan army in 9 months.

India as I understand it has armed some people militias in Jammu and Kashmir and Himachal Pradesh and maybe even the Punjab, but in the long run that is not a good policy....there are 500,000 Indian security personnel in Kashmir and that is enough to maintain control of the state. The Indian army is about 2.5 million when mobilized, backed by 4 million paramilitary.....these levels of forces are enough...and maybe what needs to be focused on is better training, and more equipment in counterinsurgency rather than more feet on the ground.

"The 5th point is to be understood. The Pakis have unleashed war on India thru their low cost Kasavs to take on India's high cost military personnel.

So you are one of those mediocre people who react to everything on Television...how shallow....obviously you've been following the Kasab trial...and the statement of his in police custody........India could retaliate against Pakistan purely on the strength of what has been happening in Kashmir, and the Pakistani backed insurgency there over the last 20 years. India could target a few insurgency bases near the LoC, which are clearly known to the army...then use Bofors 155mm longe range shells, or MRLS-Pinaka Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher, against one specific base.......that would be OK, and justified, after 20 years of insurgency from Pakistan. But not the airforce, or commandos or any missiles....And the opposition parties should be very generally informed, and the Pakistanis should have an idea that India means to retaliate.You could seriously consider these things after the election.

However such things should only be done in relation to ops in Kashmir from Pakistan and not the rest of India if India retaliates with an artillery barrage, because that will be a green light for the RSS/Siv Sen nutjobs to do false flags all over India, and then expect and put pressure on the Indian political leadership to follow through on an attack..........the situation that may arise with a BJP government. Once you have retaliated against Pakistan you need to be very careful because you have set a standard and precedent, which you are expected to follow. Also what will the outcome be on the civilian administration in Pakistan? Whats the regional reaction?

Ali.mostaque said...

When you edit comments in hindsight that is your privilege, but do highlight with the last comment what is my comment and what is yours----it all appears muddled and together.

Ali.mostaque said...

.
.
"3. I wanted to state here, when I write Pakistan Army & ISI - I do not mean the whole apparatus - but the radicalized portion and it is anyone's guess what % of the force is radicalized. I will assume a lot, as the better ones who try to bring in professionalism get bumped off from time to time and the extreme radicalized ones get to stay on. And to assuage the US, a couple of the radicalized are shoved off to cold storage only to be later found in the arms of LeT or some other terror groups.".
.
There are about 20,000 officers in the Pakistan army, and the senior ones get training in the UK, and of course USA. Some form of screening is done of these senior officers. Not all the senior officers since Zia ul Haq are like Zia. In an interval of 10 years between 1988---1998 there wasn't a religiously orientated Head of the army, and Kiyani does not seem to be Deobandi, but more likely with his extensive training in the USA, an American stooge.

Some sections of America with Israel would obviously like to see a fundie military take over of Pakistan, because that gives them a rational for attacking and occupying Pakistan, and no doubt there may be some Indians like yourself who would relish such a prospect..........

and all I would say to that is that whilst the USA and Israel are a safe distant away from Pakistan and can't be harmed, India is a neighbor of Pakistan........AND the reason why India declined several Israeli requests for joint attacks against Pakistan in the 1980's...the rational and logic of that hasn't changed since.

Also taking the scenario a little further into an advanced level into the future, who can says for certain that the Israelis/Americans/British after USING India to attack Pakistan and occupy it will therefore definitely stop at Pakistan's border? Remember what happened to the Maratha empire after Tipu Sultan was dealt with. Now here is an realistic instance where history CAN repeat itself........because you basically have elites in Pakistan and India which are neo-colonial..
.


"4. People say and write with authority that Taliban are a rag tag bunch and cannot and will not take over Pakistan - depends on whose version of truth is more colorful or verifiable.".
.
Yes indeed, so we should not be too complacent about that. Though logically they shouldn't if they didn't succeed after 7 years of hard fighting in Afghanistan, then they shouldn't in Pakistan either........though of course again the Taliban is a bogey certain sections of America with Israel would like to propagate.......and more perversely certain prominent Pakistanis to milk more aid $ for their Swiss accounts.
.
.

"5. The one thing I admire people like Hamid Gul, Sufi Mohammad et al - is their honesty in declaring their intention - that of breaking Hindustan and taking Kashmir. Every Jehadi states the same..
.

So we see who you met in Maharastra....did you meet your Israeli MOSSAD handler too! Thats where the Bene Israel were concentrated at one time.

The above statement also implies the rest of the majority of Pakistanis are dishonest.......they would secretly like to divide India but don't have the courage to say it outright......this is paranoiac RSS nonsense.

Yes that really would be a South Asian regional solution. Propagate the nutjobs in Pakistan as some kind of noble warriors in order to raise a nutjob extremist militia in India. In the medieval era this type of "peoples militia" was OK, but in the modern era most definitely not.......discipline and organization is what you need in such situations...obviously the irregular fighter has certain advantages, BUT the overall advantages goes to the organized state military and the regular army if used properly.

Also depends on how you define success. In my opinion the Indian military have been successful in Kashmir......they have effectively controlled the insurgency from Pakistan, AND most Kashmiris are happy to be part of India still, after 20 years of Pakistani based insurgency in that part......The Indian military have done their job professionally....clearly in a huge country like India you possibly could not seal the border 100%......its impossible, more so from terrorist ops that originate from India.

Lets talk about East Pakistan, where the Pakistan army armed "patriotic Pakistanis" as Razakers to fight alongside the regular army and also do various rear guard duties to relieve the Pakistan Occupation army...about 40,000 of them...what happened?.......a lot of these Razakers from the local area, used their new position to settle old scores against people who they did not personally like, nothing to do with the fact that they might be collaborating with the Mukti Bahini......unprofessional and personal prejudice...and many of the 3,000,000 killed in East Pakistan by the Pakistan army could have in fact have been killed by the Razakers...which explains the hatred against them now in Bangladesh.

Bua, don't look at situations merely in terms of achieving ABSOLUTE MILITARY GOALS...there is also the issue of the hearts and minds campaign, and propaganda campaign, which through the use of the Razakers in East Pakistan and the bad behavior of the Pakistan army led to the defeat of the Pakistan army in 9 months.

India as I understand it has armed some people militias in Jammu and Kashmir and Himachal Pradesh and maybe even the Punjab, but in the long run that is not a good policy....there are 500,000 Indian security personnel in Kashmir and that is enough to maintain control of the state. The Indian army is about 3 million when mobilized, backed by 4 million paramilitary.....these levels of forces are enough...and maybe what needs to be focused on is better training, and more equipment in counterinsurgency rather than more feet on the ground.
.
.


"The 5th point is to be understood. The Pakis have unleashed war on India thru their low cost Kasavs to take on India's high cost military personnel..
.

So you are one of those mediocre people who react to everything on Television...how predictably shallow....obviously you've been following the Kasab trial...and the statement of his in police custody........India could retaliate against Pakistan purely on the strength of what has been happening in Kashmir, and the Pakistani backed insurgency there over the last 20 years. India could target a few insurgency bases near the LoC, which are clearly known to the army...then use Bofors 155mm longe range shells, or MRLS-Pinaka Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher, against one specific base.......that would be OK, and justified, after 20 years of insurgency from Pakistan. But not the airforce, or commandos or any missiles....And the opposition parties should be very generally informed, and the Pakistanis should have an idea that India means to retaliate.You could seriously consider these things after the election.

However such things should only be done in relation to ops in Kashmir from Pakistan and not the rest of India if India retaliates with an artillery barrage, because that will be a green light for the RSS/Siv Sen nutjobs to do false flags all over India, and then expect and put pressure on the Indian political leadership to follow through on an attack against Pakistan...a slippery slope, against a failed state unstable foe..........the situation that may arise with a BJP government.

Once you have retaliated against Pakistan you need to be very careful because you have set a standard and precedent, which you are expected to follow. Also what will the outcome be on the civilian administration in Pakistan? Do you want to help the Taliban even more in Pakistan? Whats the regional reaction?

Ali.mostaque said...

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Speaking of military casualties its all relevant depending on perception and politics.....for the RSS I imagine the loss of a few million is a worth while price to pay for "unifying India".

It is for the Indian military leadership and political leadership in Delhi to decide what are acceptable military losses, not for me a non-Indian.

Here are some interesting facts though:

During peacetime the Soviet military machine used to lose up to 5,000 military casualties a year.....1945---1980.

In the USA military the casualty rate was anything from 1,000---2,000 a year during peacetime.

In India the casualty rate during peacetime is probably around 1,000 killed during training etc

In Egypt during one military exercise in the early 1970's they lost 600 soldiers.

Its all relative Jai Shri ......but as a patriotic Indian the thing to do is not create undue alarm, followed by hastily concluded decision's by Delhi, at the behest of a media onslaught in the tricky delicate matter of security in Kashmir.

Ali.mostaque said...

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Now I address point 4 of the 8 point issues around Pakistan/Afghanistan that concerns India..

4. Pakistan could be taken over by hardline Islamic fundamentalists (Deobandi), and their control of Pakistan's nuclear bomb's there after. Whilst the current Pakistan civilian/military authorities understand to a certain extent the norms of international law, the hardline Islamic fundamentalists are not constrained by such niceties.
.

This is the basic narrative of certain sections of the American security community; Certain sections of Israeli security community, and some Pakistani commentators............Finally some Indian commentators have also joined in line with this argument. They ALL have different reasons for arriving at this conclusion:
.

(i) The American security commentators usually anonymously sourced through the New York Times and Washington Post, state such things because they want to expand the stale static war on terror into a new arena, because if the American military are bogged down in Iraq, and Afghanistan their original narrative formulated in the PNAC loses momentum. By attacking Pakistan, and later invading the country that fake narrative is deemed to be "energized".....a perception is created that "progress" is being made, and the military are being put to good use. For their Israeli masters the Americans can then also secure the Pakistani nukes, and bring under control yet another Muslim country, and "liberate it".
.


(ii) For the Pakistanis there are multiple confusing contradictory reasons for pushing the Islamic fundamentalist agenda in Pakistan. For one group of the all powerful military, by giving space to Islamic fundamentalists (800,000 Pakistan military backed by 300,000 paramilitary surrendering to 3,000 lightly armed Taliban in Swat, on all the Taliban terms and some more....), this is an avenue through which the Pakistan military can destabilize the civilian government and for them a ticket back into power.
.


For a smaller group of the Pakistani military centered around Busharaf and Hamid Gul, the Islamic fundamentalists ascendancy is a natural ideological development of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan inherited from Zia ul Haq, where Sharia law is enforced in the entire country, and irregular Jihad is waged mainly against India (apparently both these ultra hardball Deobandi Islamic nationalist generals have absolutely no problems with America/Israel ............if you can source all the photo ops of them saluting the two countries, hugging, shaking hands and kissing and saluting of course.....into 2009).
.


The final group in Pakistan which is propagating the Islamic ascendancy myth is the present Pakistani government under Zardari. It is probable that Zardari in power for only a few months so far has little or no say over security matters and therefore his main focus would be to make as much money as he could whilst the going was good (HE OFFERS ABSOLUTELY NO POLITICAL AGENDAS FOR RUNNING PAKISTAN......NO programs, nothing, no real governance). His primary motivation is himself and money, and milking the threat of Islamic ascendancy in Pakistan to gain more aid money. He did suggest a American financed Marshal plan for saving Pakistan amounting to $30 billion but probably the Americans understand precisely what type of SAVINGS Zardari was talking about, as they do with the $7.6 billion American economic aid and the $5.28 billion international pledge.
.

(iii) The Indian's want to propagate the Islamic ascendancy in Pakistan because for some of them it is chance to get closer to America............."I like you, you like me, we friends yaar"; to be clearly accepted as the regional power in South Asia by America, and by a few possibly to get even with Pakistan through joint ops against Pakistan.
.


The Pakistan military are thus playing a dangerous brinkmanship game, creating such negative narratives against Pakistan whilst fully cooperating with the USA's covert agenda's which long term harm Pakistan clearly, and it is Pakistan which can lose a lot in such a scenario eventually. As a neighbor India can also lose.

Ali.mostaque said...

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In India those who are sufficiently informed should know that it is the British who created the Muslim League in 1905, using their favored puppets in the Bengal Muslim aristocracy, to challenge the Congress Party in India (The same reason why Pakistan was created as a state by the British....using their agent Jinnah). Also one should know that the British backed the Wahabi House of Saud into power, against the interests of the much more moderate Hashemites. If we keep these two clear facts in mind, then we should have no problems in understanding why the British created the Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt in the early part of the last century, the grand daddy of al-Qaeda, and of many other real and imaginary Islamic movements in the Greater Middle East and the world.

With Islamic fundamentalists Western powers with imperialist pretensions, like the UK can use them to:

1) destabilize Muslim countries
2) Have simple minded uneducated idiots running a country, and therefore more easily manipulated, and thus destroy any development and modernization programs within that country.
3) Provide the rational for attacking a Muslim country (ALL MUSLIM COUNTRIES UNDER FUNDAMENTALIST RULE HAVE EITHER BEEN INVADED {Somalia, Afghanistan}, OR ARE BEING THREATENED WITH INVASION{Iran, Hamas Gaza, and to a lessor extent Hezbollah Lebanon}.....................so a simple lesson to learn for all Muslim countries is avoid and fight the Islamic fundamentalism within your country if you want to avoid Western neo-colonial "liberation" by the likes of the USA, and UK.

Iraq is run by Islamic parties under American "liberation".

What other uses do Islamic fundamentalists have besides their colorful appearance and rhetoric for the Western neo-colonialists? In the case of Egypt, and the Islamic Brotherhood as in the case with India and the British creation of the Muslim League, the British used the Islamic Brotherhood to challenge the secular modernist NATIONALIST movement in Egypt which wanted complete independence from Britain and its domination of the country. So the British very generously funded the building of the first Mosque to be run by the Brotherhood.....and they went into their religious rants, attracting mainly poor misguided young men.........and you shout Sharia law, and sharia law and sharia law...with Islamic Qalifat, Qalifaat and Qalifaat..........but this is all illusionary nonsense, to divert from the real task of nation building under a nationalist banner.

And so we have in Swat a puppet of Western Intelligence coming out with the nonsense of Sharia law for the whole of Pakistan.........and a call for Qalifaat( http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Taliban-want-Sharia-throughout-Pak/articleshow/4424528.cms)..........written by British intelligence, and guided by the Pakistan military. Busharaf the deobandi is off to Saudi, and then London to thank them. And the rest of Pakistan which in free fair elections in 2008 voted for non-Fundamentalist parties over overwhelmingly. If you live in Pakistan get ready fro invasion and occupation by the British and USA "Liberation forces". The Pakistan military have sold the nation out, again in the process of flying the Pakistani flag and solid nationalists.
,
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http://mostaqueali.blogspot.com/2008/03/bernard-lewis.html

http://mostaqueali.blogspot.com/2008/03/fall-of-shah-real-story.html

http://mostaqueali.blogspot.com/2007/11/london-number-one-safe-house-for-global.html

http://mostaqueali.blogspot.com/2007/11/bilaat-saab-jee-saab-america-saab-jee.html

http://mostaqueali.blogspot.com/2007/11/islamic-fundamentalism-fifth-column.html

http://mostaqueali.blogspot.com/2007/11/hamas-son-of-israel.html

http://mostaqueali.blogspot.com/2007/11/al-qaeda-global-renamo.html

http://mostaqueali.blogspot.com/2007/11/gwot-over-100-years.html

http://mostaqueali.blogspot.com/2007/05/al-qaeda-tool-of-west.html

http://mostaqueali.blogspot.com/2007/05/bernard-lewis-and-samuel-huntington.html

Ali.mostaque said...

http://mostaqueali.blogspot.com/2008/03/great-game.html

Anonymous said...

Mostaque,

Some of what u have written makes eminent sense - some not so.

Will read all of this in the evening and get back.

Anonymous said...

propoganda

Anonymous said...

Well I think Bua, you are quite inspired by this article but forget to quote a conclusion or lesson from it.

http://maqasid.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/khurasan-signs-of-the-end-of-times/

I dont know abt the authenticity of hadith associated with Ghazwatul Hind hadith. But other Hadiths mentioned in the above link are authentic.

I dont have any interest in what will be future of India. But I am quite concern with the End of Times. And You should too.

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maloy said...

A good analytical discourse. Why do not you get a compilation published?

Arif shah said...

The analysis is full of hypothetical condos and it has really nothing to do with the intention that it was written for. if at all there is going to be a final war between Muslims and JEWS with Christens, why for GOD sake you bring Indian connection in ?, for no reason.! India has 400 Million Muslims, so obviously India remains completely untouched and out of war. its a third party factor. but yes it has to decide with whom it goes with. what is in its benefit. should it go with already a monolithic part of Muslims of it OR with the Ph.D in deception, the hardcore opportunist Israel?. yes . Simple.

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Anonymous said...

This is again serial shit by Indian and the west to disrespect Pakistan and the Muslim in the world.

Keep up Pakistan/ISI well job

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Afghan refugee said...

Kashmiris are Indo Aryan Hindu people with the same Hindu customs even Kalasha and Nuristanis are Rig Veda people

Afghan refugee said...

Stupid article, Kashmiris are Indo Aryan dard speakers with R1a1 M17, their traditions are old rig veda religion, the Afghan Pashtuns are Huns with G2c haplogroup and the Pakistani are Pashtunized Ghandari people of mostly hindkowan and also dard origins, like the Karlani who are adopted Pashtun people, the original Pashtuns were an eastern Iranian tribe that were from Suleiman mountains, that is why Pashto is eastern iranian, but they are really mixed nowadays, the Kalasha are the original Indo Aryan race, the Punjabis are mixed with australoid and many other bloodlines or else they too are Indo Aryan people. Another missing point is that Kashmiris are not warlike people and their history is not like the Pathans, even Haryanvi Jatts who are genetically saka tribes have more war histories compared to Kashmiri people.

Afghan refugee said...

Stupid article, Kashmiris are Indo Aryan dard speakers with R1a1 M17, their traditions are old rig veda religion, the Afghan Pashtuns are Huns with G2c haplogroup and the Pakistani are Pashtunized Ghandari people of mostly hindkowan and also dard origins, like the Karlani who are adopted Pashtun people, the original Pashtuns were an eastern Iranian tribe that were from Suleiman mountains, that is why Pashto is eastern iranian, but they are really mixed nowadays, the Kalasha are the original Indo Aryan race, the Punjabis are mixed with australoid and many other bloodlines or else they too are Indo Aryan people. Another missing point is that Kashmiris are not warlike people and their history is not like the Pathans, even Haryanvi Jatts who are genetically saka tribes have more war histories compared to Kashmiri people.

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