Before we start looking at things from our perspective and start analysing, it will be prudent to look at this situation from the eyes of Pakistanis. Next article we can look at it from our perspective.
Pakistan agreed to restore strict Islamist law in the Swat valley to pacify a revolt by Taliban militants. The agreement was reached at talks between Islamists and officials of the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) government in Peshawar on Monday.
MIAN IFTIKHAR HUSSAIN OF ANP - IN A PENSIVE MOOD
"After successful negotiations ... all un-Islamic laws related to the judicial system, those against the Koran and Sunnah, would be subject to cancellation and considered null and void," said NWFP's Information Minister Mian Iftikhar Hussain, referring to the holy book of Islam and the saying and teachings of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).
The Pakistani Spectator is commenting: Well that is not a problem actually. As late as July 28, 1969 Qazi courts were operating in the Swat valley. Then English legal system was introduced by the government in the area which proved extremely inefficient and was rife with irregularities and it only delayed the justice. Government’s half hearted efforts in managing the Swat and FATA area (which is still largely governed by the FCR) made the matters worst over the years.
Abject povert and deprivation of the area, lack of justice and opportunities, apathy of successive governments, clueless Afghan war fighters and some of semi-literate so-called religious leaders are the main reasons behind Swat and FATA unrest. Like it or not, right now Taliban in the Swat region enjoy the support of local population who support the Taliban’s demand of Shariah promulgation in Malakand Agency.
Even the police officers of the area and secular politician have supported this demand. Chief Minister of NWFP Ameer Haider Hoti, Governor Awais Ghani and the Army high command have strongly recommended to enforce the long pending Sharia regulations, which will be called the “Nifaz-e-Adal regulation”.
There is only one solution to the Swat problem and that is political. Government should readily announce the promulgation of Shariah in the Swat region. It will leave Taliban with no plausible demand and they would have no option but to accept the Shariah and it would also place the local population on the side of government. Some Talibans would like to take control of Shariah, but that is not so much bigger problem and could be handled by the government.”
Dr Ghayur Ayub writing in Pak Tribune : Taliban’s Swift Justice.
Dr. Ayub writes - It was during a visit to Peshawar that I met a senior police officer. He narrated a story which was brow-raising. He told of a person from Bannu who lent Rs. 40,000 [approx. U.S. $500] to a man he knew, who promised that he would return it within a specified time. He told the borrower that he had saved up the said amount to help pay for his children's education. When the agreed time lapsed, he asked him to return the amount. The borrower started making excuses and after a few months he flatly refused and challenged the lender to do what ever he could. There is a Pukhtu word for it ‘Laas Da Azaad De’.
The man went from pillar to post to seek justice but with no result. The police proved incapable as the borrower was a powerful man with strong connections. When he tried to knock on the door of the court for justice he was dismayed to hear that it would take months for the case to come to a hearing and years to reach a final judgment. After all that, the chances were that the verdict would go against him as he was up against powerful people. To top it off, he was told he had to pay Rs 1000/ upfront every time he wanted to put his case forward for a hearing. This amount did not include the amount he was going to pay the lawyers. When he calculated it, the approximate amount turned out to be more than the actual amount he was going to seek justice for.
At the end of every day, he would go back home heart broken; cursing his luck to be living in a country where there was no justice for the middle or poor classes. He tried to persuade the borrower by pleading with him, explaining how desperately he needed the money for his children’s education. He even offered a discount or to split the amount into installments, but all in vain. It was like hitting a brick wall. He felt dejected, helpless and powerless to see his children suffering just because he came from a stratum of a society pushed against the wall.
One evening, he heard a knock on the door. He opened it and saw two strangers with bushy beards standing outside. Thinking they were there to collect charity, he asked with irritation what they wanted. They told him that they saw him crying in the mosque and on enquiry they were told that someone was refusing to pay his money back. With a surprised look on his face, he asked them who they were.
“We are local Taliban,” they said. Then they asked if he would let them have his side of story. He saw a ray of hope and ushered them in. After listening to his story, the Taliban told him that the borrower had committed an un-Islamic act, and if he wanted they could persuade him to return the said money. “We want your permission”. His heart jumped with flickering optimism and immense joy and without any hesitation, he gave them his consent. Before they left the premises they asked for 72 hours.
According to the police officer, the Taliban went to the influential man and told him it was un-Islamic not to pay the amount he had borrowed from the man. They threatened that if he did not pay the debt back within 48 hours; he would bear the consequences. They also told him how Taliban had previously dealt with people like him. Shivers went through the spine of the ‘powerful’ man as he knew what their threat meant. With a dry mouth, frightened face and shaking body he nodded his head in agreement, promising he would return the amount. The next day, he went to the house of the lender and paid back the full amount he had refused up until then. He apologized for the delay and requested him to tell the Taliban not to harm him or his family and to let them know that he had returned the money. The Taliban never went back to ask whether he got the money back, but they must had been watching the development. From that day on, according to the police officer, that man became a strong supporter of Taliban. Could anyone blame him?
Another related story about quick and effective justice comes from the Bugti tribe of Balochistan. According to electronic media, a man named Nazim Ali was refused his share in a dispute. According to him, he spent a lot of money to get justice from the court but failed because of corrupt practices. So he went to the tribal chief who referred him to the Jirga. The Jirga decided that he should walk on fire and if he was telling the truth he will not be burned. Nazim Ali agreed to it and in front of onlookers he walked on red hot coal. After the walk, people saw that his soles were not burned. The chief decided in his favor and he was given his due share.
There are countless other stories of parallel justice systems running in Pakistan in the present day. These systems seem to be nippy and effective satisfying their poor clients. Some are Taliban style, others tribal style, sharing one commonality; they are swift, just and not stained with corruption.
In my discussions with different walks of people living in the troubled parts of FATA and NWFP the vast majority agreed that the justice provided by Taliban is fair and quick. They might not agree with other activities related to Talibanization such as discouraging western education, burning of schools, gender discrimination etc; but they do appreciate the provision of justice served at the doorsteps with efficiency, audacity and honesty. Swift justice is the major achievement which attracts the poor people of Pakistan to Taliban.”
A comment from a Pakistani to the above article:
“This is the time when we have to strive to preserve our national interests, we should clearly tell USA that Taliban are our friends, they have never been a threat to Pakistan and they don't have any international agenda like Al Qaeda. We should also clearly tell USA that Afghanistan can only be handled if its administration can be given to Pakistan because we know how to handle afghan issues. At the same time, we should try to make arrangements with Pakistani Taliban, we should tell them that we are not their foes and we do not want them to lose but for this they have to do some overhauling in their ranks and they need to find some hidden hands in their armament supply and they should also seek those people who are using their anger on the state of Pakistan and its forces, we should also tell them that they are unwittingly playing in the hands of our and their foes. "Pushtoon-Nationalism" of anti-Pakistan elements like ANP can only be defeated by the help of Taliban and for this purpose we need to build new relations with them and there should be win-win approach to it.”
Ahmed Quraishi – a well known commentator in Pakistan who sometimes hosts show with the infamous Zaid Hamid had this to say:
“I must say first that this classification, the good Taliban, the bad and the ugly, is to simplify a very complex situation. This classification is a good way to begin to understand the situation. Note that the good Taliban in this classification is the Afghan Taliban alone. The bad and the ugly are the Pakistani Taliban.
The Afghan Taliban is based in Afghanistan and is fighting in Afghanistan. They have not engaged in fighting inside Pakistan. So the question of them fighting the Pakistani Taliban, the bad the ugly, does not arise. Also, the good Taliban, the Afghan Taliban, are focusing their resources on fighting the occupation forces in their own country, Afghanistan. They are not concerned with saving the Pakistani state and fighting Pakistan's own enemies inside Pakistan. The Afghan Taliban are using whatever resources they have to focus on Afghanistan.
Initially the Afghan Taliban were encouraged by the sudden emergence of the Pakistani Taliban. However, they became skeptical when the Pakistani Taliban began to get engaged in suspicious activities, like attacking China's interests inside Pakistan, attacking the Pakistani government and military, and abducting Pakistani civilians and brutally murdering them. That's when Mullah Omar is reported to have publicly rebuked the so-called Pakistani Taliban and distanced the Afghan Taliban from the Pakistanis.
Once again, this is not about secularism or modernity, or liking or disliking the Taliban and their style of governance. This is about proxy wars at the level of intelligence services of several countries. The Pakistani Taliban, the so-called, are good in our books only because they are part of the overall political and military resistance to the occupation in their own country. They have never before or now indulged in terrorism anywhere.
The Pakistani Taliban is an amalgamation of criminal elements, opportunists, and hired sabeteurs leading a bunch of misguided people. They need to be eliminated. Pakistani government and military have ample evidence that shows that suspicious elements, including foreigners with possible links to intelligence agencies of several countries, have been fighting as part of the so-called Pakistani Taliban. Pakistan can decisively eliminate these people.
But these criminals have deliberately entrenched themselves in populated areas in order to provoke the Pakistani military into retaliation resulting in massive civilian casualties. This is a known guerrilla warfare tactic. It aims at discrediting the regular forces at the level of propaganda. Also, another reason why the Pakistani military is not using all-out force is to avoid a possible bait. There is reason to believe that the increased insurgencies in western Pakistani regions since 2005 onwards is deliberate and one of its objectives could be to attract the Pakistani military into an expanded internal civil war in the tribal belt. The Pakistani military might be trying to avoid this large scale war, keeping in mind that the foreign-trained and funded insurgency is tied to the situation in Afghanistan and the role being there by India and the United States, and possible a couple of other European countries that have established intelligence outposts there.”
Another Pakistani’s response to Ahmed Quraishi’s (AQ) reply above :
“Sorry, but this article is a load of toss! there can be absolutely no justification for the actions of these so called taliban. Pakistani, or local or whatever u wanna call them. as for AQ's reply, there are several very confusing contradictions, at one point you are calling the pakistani taliban to not be engaged in any terrorist activity, and in the next line you are saying that they are comprised of criminals, hired saboteurs, terrorists, that they are a problem!!!! pakistani army had gained a clear edge in the early stages of operation rah-e-haqq, if it wasnt for those ANP idiots making peace treaties, we'd trapped them and brought enough firepower on them to wipe them out for good. yes, i personally know that we came this close to victory but then stopped short of delivering the killer blow. not once, but twice. now they have re-organized and re-equipped themselves, knowing full well how the army fights, and how to counter it. Things are getting out of hand. and no one is coming forward to accept the responsibility, FATA, Swat, and most likely the NWFP WILL get out hand if ruthless, swift and decisive measures are not taken. It may sound hooliganistic, but there is a need for launching a sustained air campaign in those areas, i am talking about PAF bringing its autonomous firepower to bear against these talibans. Soften them up, then wipe the slate clean. The ground forces should take a secondary role. PAF has the capability to accurately hit these guys. if they are indulging in psy warfare and terror tactics by chopping the heads off and hanging the bodies, then we should pay the favour back in kind. and i tell you, no enemy, no matter how hardcore, can stand against the disuasive effect air power has. Aside from that, i am disappointed to see such an article appearing on AQ's website, the last place I’d expect to see such nonsense glorifying these barbarians.”
Another Pakistani response: The government is claiming this to be a big victory. Under the agreement Sharia law is being formally established as the law in the Swat and Malakand region, provided the TNSM helps establish stability there, and also supports a new local administration which will be established in Swat, operating under Sharia law, with the consensus of all players in Swat. The TSNM's militant wing, the Swat Taliban, has also agreed to a 10-day ceasefire and to cease burning down schools. This agreement may I add, has almost no chance of working.
This is not the first attempted peace agreement in Swat. In 2008 a deal was struck with the TNSM, requiring them to “hold the local government…in high esteem, work for the peaceful implementation and enforcement of Sharia law, condemn attacks on the government, and cooperate with the government to establish the law and restore peace." We see, here that this is not the first time we’ve offered them Sharia law as an olive branch. The logic of the Pakistani government would seem to be that, under the new system, the TNSM will get their demand for Sharia law, but this will be Sharia law, to the extent it falls within the limits of the Pakistani constitution, as this region would still be part of the Pakistani state. Hence, this would not be much more than a change in appearance, as all that will happen is, in exchange for peace, judges within these areas, will move from having the title ‘Judge’ to having the title ‘Qazi’, a nominal difference at best. They have attempted this kind of compromise before, and it will not work.
This is because these people do not have any interest in falling under the control of the state and constitution of Pakistan. These are not simple clerics, who feel their religious imperative urges them to establish an Islam-based legal system in Pakistan. This is an armed revolutionary movement bent on control and establishment of their own system under their own supervision.
Moreover, they’ve seen this tactic from the Pakistani government before, and they are wise to it. Sufi Mohammad, the leader of the TNSM has already made clear, that the condition must be added that Sharia court decisions in Swat cannot be verified by or appealed in the courts of the rest of the state judicial system. This, of course, means that without any supervision or provision for appeal, the courts will run based on whatever law the strongest group within Swat, that being the TNSM/Taliban, chooses. The constitution would be irrelevant. This, of course, is a condition that the Pakistani government would never be willing to accept. If it does, they would effectively be partitioning Swat from Pakistan. If it doesn’t, well, the TNSM/Taliban will claim that the government is not committed to true Sharia, and not committed to following with their deal, just as they claimed in the last peace agreement of 2008, and thus will be “compelled” to take up their arms once more, and the terror will resume.
Only this time, it will prove to be even worse. With this level of acceptance from the government, these Jihadis will gain more public legitimacy than ever before. With the government itself accepting their fight as a struggle for Sharia, and further, publicly declaring their demand for Sharia legitimate through this deal, the government is allowing them to shape the public appearance of this conflict. So, when this agreement will fall through, as it inevitably will, the TNSM and Taliban will be able to use the public legitimacy their cause is being given, to blame the government for betraying their legitimate cause of Islamic law, and further fuel public opinion in the rest of Pakistan against the government. Many feel one of the main reasons the government is being driven to this agreement is that the government itself is incurring massive losses and yet does not even have the support of a public mandate for fighting the Taliban militarily. Therefore, they are driven to other solutions. However, this option is doomed to failure. The agreement will not only fall through soon enough, but the agreement will give the Taliban and the TNSM’s position further legitimacy, and give them an opportunity to turn the public opinion even further against the government’s armed solution.
I implore President Zardari to abandon this unwise strategy. You have tried these tactics before. They have not worked. In fact from Musharraf’s countless failed peace deals, to the failed treaties last years, the state has always been weakened further in relation to these terrorists in these deals. Watch their activities. Listen to their rhetoric. They have no real interest in compromising with the government. They have no intentions of subordinating to, or even coexisting with, the Pakistani state. For them, such agreements are only stepping stones towards further legitimacy and further control, and only help ease their path towards the dominant position they wish to take, piece by piece, over the whole of this tottering nation, Pakistan.
Salman, a Pakistani, is an astronomer and Assistant Professor of Integrated Science & Humanities at Hampshire College, Massachusetts. In his blog – Science and Religion News he writes:
The news is bad for three main reasons:
a) The deal was struck after the failure of the military to defeat the militants. Lets be clear: The government was forced into making this deal by people who have been bombing schools and beheading people for the past few months. In return, the militants have a declared a 10 day cease fire. Prior peace deals in the tribal areas have mostly resulted in a stronger militancy - and many doubt that the outcome will be any different here. But this deal primarily gives us a status report of Pakistan army's fight against the militants.
b) Taliban expert, Ahmad Rashid, has been warning about Swat for a while. He suspects that, because of the success of drone attacks, Al-Qaeeda and Taliban leaderships are moving into the Swat district. This area has highly developed infrastructure and is only a 100 miles from Islamabad. But most importantly, it is quite far away from the Afghan border and the tribal areas and so may be safe from the drone attacks. Even if the drones are flying from bases in Pakistan, as Diane Feinstein recently stated, it will still be harder to attack on areas inside main Pakistan. If the Taliban and Al-Qaeeda leadership are indeed moving to Swat, this deal will further allow then to take control of the area.
c) This may be considered a model for other areas. Granted Swat has a peculiar history (all areas in Pakistan have their own peculiar histories), the strategy of terrorizing the population may be implementable in conservative enclaves in major cities, especially in Peshawar and Quetta, not to mention in other smaller districts of NWFP. Thus, the slow march of Taliban toward the more populous areas of Pakistan will continue. Remember, if Iraq with a population of 26 million was hard to control, then what hope do we have in a country of 170 million.
All of these reasons make Swat a crucial test for the battle against the Taliban. But things are not that simple. The people of Swat are relieved at the peace deal. They have been stuck for months between the brutal Taliban and an indiscriminant brute-force Pakistan military. For them, this is the only hope for peace and many are greeting this development with optimism ( And some of them are not spared respite even in New York - see this story about Swati's in New York feeling the Taliban heat. ).
Kamran Shafi writing in DAWN laments: "Let all of us Pakistanis hang our collective head in sorrow and in shame at the dreadful and downright evil and cold-blooded murder of Piotr Stanczek, the Polish geologist who was prospecting for oil in Attock district and who was kidnapped by the so-called Taliban and cruelly beheaded. What has gone wrong with us, I ask? Is this the country I was born in? Is this cruel and ugly place the Pakistan I knew whilst growing up, and going to college in Lahore where boys and girls would cycle to their schools and colleges as a matter of course? Is this tortured land that same land I called mine?"
Incidentally I have been informed that if anyone wants to know about SWAT - he has to read this exceptional article SWAT - A CRITICAL ANALYSIS, written by Dr. Sultan-i-Rome Assistant Professor of History and teaches at the Government Post Graduate Jahanzeb College, in Saidu Sharif, Swat, Pakistan.
PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN - ASIF ZARDARI stating: Pakistan fighting for survival against Taliban.
President Asif Zardari said the Taliban was trying to take over the country after having established its presence in "huge amounts of land" much beyond the tribal areas that form the terror group's original habitat. The official acceptance of the creeping takeover by Taliban would discomfit the powerful Pakistan army-ISI complex that is loath to admit its failure to control territory and has been at loggerheads with Zardari.
HOW CAN I LEAVE OUT THE ISI VIEW POINT:
ISI Directorate chief Lieutenant-General Shuja Pasha hailed jihadist leaders Baitullah Mehsud and Mullah Fazlullah, whose depredations have claimed the lives of thousands of Pakistanis, as true patriots for offering to fight India.
Der Spiegel which carried an interview with Shuja Pasha comments: "Many Pakistani military officers do not see the Taliban as their enemy, but rather as a group that secretly promotes Pakistan's interests in its resistance against Kabul and the United States. India, on the other hand, has already been Pakistan's enemy in three wars."
Shuja Pasha also defended the Taliban in an interview with Der Spiegel, stating: "Shouldn't they be allowed to think and say what they please? They believe that jihad is their obligation. Isn't that freedom of opinion?
What else can we expect from the ISI which created the Taliban in the first place?
SWAT - ONCE MORE UP CLOSE. (Switzerland of East or HELL?)
I dont know what you see, but I see that Taliban (ISI proxies) in SWAT is just a hop, skip and jump away from KASHMIR.
28 comments:
No doubt, Ahmed Shuja Pasha is a Taliban and they have released the LeT nuclear scientist - A Q Khan.
Releases the Army from West to play mischief in the East. Wanna bet, there will be a major terror activity soon in Kashmir (most likely), rest of India (likely) or USA (least likely) in the next one month.
Let's see.
Was waiting for this one. I wanted to share the feeling of happiness that I feel especially imagining the faces of the two cry babies of Pakistan, AQ and ZH(Piss Be Upon Him). Hell why not give it them both. AQ (Piss be upon him too). Am sounding a bit sadist here... but I would love to see these two buggers cry bucketloads of there crocodile tears.
@ BuA,
Well!! read the article and now am in a saner mood, no sadism anymore..lmfao.
I think there is cleary more to it than meets the eye. Few things that I feel.
1) The ISI has conviniently manouvered itself out of the SWAT Portion.
2) Its created a legal buffer zone for its assets the Taliban and the AL-Q in SWAT where the Constitutional laws and authorities dont work henceforth (at least till the deal continues). This also would have been prompted by the fact that they almost Lost LeT and JuD.
3) Now the ISI can work with virtual impunity in its buffer zone alongside its assets.
4) Expecially worth pondering is the international border up north of Swat. It is shared with POK. This is where the BUFFER zone theory plays the key role. By creating the so called off limits buffer zone bordering Kashmir, ISI and ARMY have bought a legal permit to funnel Taliban and Al-Q into Kashmir through PoK.
If we go by the history of all that is, these mercenaries/terrorists etc. have a habit of continuing their Jihad even after achieving their objectives. So if the treaty works, the militia arm of the taliban would be rendered jobless and will look for greener pastures. And I have an extremely dirty feeling that these greener pastures for spilling blood would be sought northwards rather than southwards. As it is, SWAT is an extension of Kashmir in terms of terrain, it is all the more obvious that the strategy seems to be "If its worked in SWAT, it might work in POK and subsequently in Indian Kashmir".
When my child who is all but three, is agitated at something or cries for something, the easiest path I use is to channelise the energy somewhere else. I think, its a simple strategy of providing the rogues of SWAT/FATA a new channel to focus their energies. Especially since it would be easier to get them motivated against the "Hindu Zionist" ruling over an Islamic Kashmir against the wish of the muslim community.
TTV
Of course there is more than meets the eye. The military is free to work on the eastern borders.
Taliban has been tasked to take over Kashmir and plant the Pak flag in Srinagar Assembly.
All this talk of Taliban taking over Islamabad is all hogwash and is not going to happen. The Taliban is there to take over Kashmir. At least that is what the Pak Army and ISI has been paying and nurturing them for.
Now, India and US have assets embedded in these Afghan Taliban elements too. Who knows what their agenda will be?
The Indian agenda will be to scare the pants off the Americans to the real threat of nuclear bombs falling in the hands of Taliban. After all, Kahuta is not that far off from SWAT!!!
But for me, its action stations KASHMIR. First infiltration and then internal mayhem followed up with Taliban launching multiple attacks on Kashmir through POK.
And I am very sure, the Indian strategists also know of the ultimate designs.
Yet, we are unable to get bullet proof vests, thermal imagers, night vision goggles ...
RAW answers to PM, while ISI answers to the ARMY. A big difference.
@TTVINDIA,
your Indian agents Baitullah
mehsoud and Fazalullah are
making agreements with Govt.
The Govt of PPP which is already
adoptive harami child of
Hindutva, you are mistaken,
nothing is resolved, unless the
real Taliban will approve !!
Unless your 21 consulats exist
in Afghanistan from where you
send your harami agents, India
and Baitullah Fazslullah are
on hit list of Talibans, do you think taliban will accept this drama of ANP your harami child .
Nazar Muhammed Ghulzai Qandahar
Is there bloody INTERNET available in QANDAHAR???? I mean Kabul I would understand, but Qandahar? Some progress. Seems like another of the ZZH's(Piss Be Upon HIm) stooges posing as someone to reply to this blog. Anyways, the bugger has not read the article and only the remarks i think. He failed to notice that conveniently BUA has first posted the views from Pakistan and not our per say.
@Nazar Md = Z Harris.
You state: "your Indian agents Baitullah mehsoud and Fazalullah are making agreements with Govt."
And then your ISI Chief Shuja Pasha calls Baitullah Mehsud as a TRUE PATRIOT.
According to your logic - Shuja Pasha will be an Indian agent too? Care to clarify your position?
BuA
Was looking forward to a post by you on this topic.
As you've specified, Taliban is just a hop away from Kashmir.
will summer coming up in a few months, there could be a huge increase in infiltration.
Things are not looking good for India. I hope, The fact that the nukes are less 200 miles from the Mullas, will make US shit in its pants.
This summer is gonna be a scorcher.
Whats your take for next 3 months
[which i believe will change the world]
Cheers,
clemenza
I received this mail from alter ego of Z Harris:
@ Bua,
you change your music now,
no, you remain enemy, we will
come and get all culprits
killing Afghanis and Pakistani,
your blood is allowed to every
Afghanis, Pakistani, and
Talibans. Talibans are reading
each and every comment on your
fucking blog, you arseholes.
Akbar Khan Wardak,
Darra Adam khel
MY REPLY:
Mr AK Wardak = Z Harris. I will go so far as to say that you have not read your Quran properly and even if you have read you have not understood the meaning. Otherwise you will not be posting threats and using foul language. You have the right to express your views, but this is "low class".
My very good friend, who I will call Syed M Z and who is of Middle Eastern descent and is a devout Muslim and comes from a family of religious peers has to say this:
The problem with Pakistan is that most of the Taliban are illiterate, and they are taught the wrong interpretation of Quran. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) has stated his followers to educate themselves and then educate their children - so much so that he advocated that they should even go off to China to gain knowledge (apparently at that time, China was considered a country having advanced knowledge).
SMZ told me that the Quran tells us that "kaffirs can be killed if they attack Islam". The Prophet (pbuh) did not say - "kaffirs can be killed if they attack Muslims". Here lies the difference.
The Prophet (phuh) states that Islam translated means peace. And the Prophet (phuh) therefore said, those who are against peace (Islam) and wants to wage war, then the peace lovers (the Islams) can attack to these kaffirs (kaffir = unbelievers in peace), so that peace (Islam) can reign.
Even then, in warfare, the rules of engagement were - 1) if the enemy loses his sword while fighting you cannot attack and kill him, 2) you cannot attack women and children, and 3) you cannot loot the belongings of the vanquished.
SMZ said, people who follow their own religion and live in peace and harmony, cannot be called a Kaffir. A kaffir is one who is against "PEACE". As peace translates to Islam.
I will sit with him and get all the Quranic quotations and he has promised me an English version that he feels is the correct interpretation.
As a Muslim, he is so against Pakistan and Taliban, that you have to see it to believe it. I guess, what makes India great, is that we have far more people like SMZ that "nutheads" like you.
If nothing else, I hope, you to understand your Quran first before coming and speaking in a language and tone, which embarrasses Pakistan more.
I swear... Another surprise. A day of surprises i guess. Darra Adam Khel having internet???? And people reading Indian Blogs amidst Mullah Radio's fatwa and stuff..... Kewl Man... a definite ZZh (You know what to write) or AQ stooge. Good to see them frustrated and flabbergasted. Morons... the Sadist in me is enjoying this BuA....
And by the way, do convey my regards to SMZ, the words you have mentioned have changed the way I look at all things Islamic. Would like to interact with him sometime too. Ask him to contribute here as well.
BuA
One quick question for you.
US seems to be ok with Pakistan having a Cease fire with Taliban.
[as per rediff.com]
how is that possible?
cheers,
Clemenza
BUA - in reply to zaid zaman above,
"..so much so that he advocated that they should even go off to China to gain knowledge (apparently at that time, China was considered a country having advanced knowledge)."
Wrong, actually China was considered as the farthest away land that Muslims had not entered. From Saudia Islam spread upwards to Europe, west to Africa and East to the Indian subcontinent, but stopped on the fothills of the Himalayas.
As such China was considered as the "far away land" and so our Prophet (pboh) made a metaphoric statement saying "gain knowledge even if its from China" - which means endavour your best (travel the farthest possible worlds) to gain knowledge. It had nothing to do with China having advanced knowledge. At those days, it was India and a lesser extent Persia who were considered to be advanced countries because Arab travellers (eg Al Khawarizmi) picked up a treasure trove of Hindoo knowledge from India (eg Gravitational theories, numericals, and other math). China was not know as a "knowledge country" because no knowledge from China was spread directly to the Muslims. ingenous Chinese inventions like silk, bell, gunpowder etc all passed India and matured there before Arabs picked it up. So India was the land of knowledge.
just for your knowledge!! no offence!!
I was wondering too, coz at that time, India was the land of knowledge.
China too had an advanced civilization but the knowledge base was in India.
BuA, the basic replies are correct though.
BUA - in reply to zaid zaman above,
Let me point out to you the actual problem is NOT like your friend says. The Taliban are illeterate and memorize the Quran verbally. However there are verses in the Quran that when viewed from a STRAIGHT point of view (yes, straight, not skewed) advocate killing non believers. And that's the whole problem here. The sick book authorises such insanity.
check out the following statements frm Quran and tell me whether it sounds like a "religion of peace":
[Quran 9.29]:
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
[Quran 5:33]:
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land (non believers) will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.
[Quran 9:14]:
Fight them (non believers)! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.
[Quran 66.9]:
O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed).
[Tabari IX 76]:
Malik has reported to me that you were the first from Himyar to embrace Islam and that you have killed infidels, so rejoice at your good fortune.
[Quran 2.190]:
Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.
YOU SPOKE ABOUT WOMEN / CHILDREN
[Sahih Bukhari 4:52:256]:
Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama: The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."
ISLAM PEACE RELIGION?? WHY EVERY ISLAMIC FLAG GOT SOME WEAPON ON IT?? LOOK AT SAUDI (SWORD) AND PAKISTAN (SICKLE)
[Sahih Bukhari 9:87:164]:
Narrated Abu Musa: The Prophet said, "I saw in a dream that I waved a sword and it broke in the middle, and behold, that symbolized the casualties the believers suffered on the Day (of the battle) of Uhud. Then I waved the sword again, and it became better than it had ever been before, and behold, that symbolized the Conquest (of Mecca) which Allah brought about and the gathering of the believers. "
NOW BUA this is a challenge to you:
Ask your SMZ buddy to justify these verses.
Ask him to deny their existance or question the translation.
(even if he does I can provide a whole load more of such verses the Quran is jampacked with)
A kaffir is one who is against "PEACE". As peace translates to Islam. - Where does it say such a thing in the Quran? Remember Taliban and Pakistanis are illeterate monocular pigs and only whats written in the Quran matters to them.
I appreciate your friend's wisdom to actually understand the true meaning behind all religions. But unfortunately his wisdom is directly opposite of Islam's notion, sorry to say.
And thats why even if Muslims go to Pluto, if they dont denounce the Quran, or at least reform themselves to have a more open, realistic mind instead of rigidly following a 6th century hate text, they will forever be the scum of mankind.
Sorry if I sound fanatic but its not my intention. Lets be straight and open here.
BUA no offence please, both to you and SMZ.
TO Anon above : I will take a printout and sit with SMZ and if anyone can give me a translation it will be him.
However, let me make myself clear. SMZ may be a very good friend of mine but he is a Muslim first - hence he may well sugar coat his views, but knowing him he passionately believes in what he says and in his company he has kept majority of Hindu employees. His knowledge of different religions and how one has correlation with the other is really fascinating.
I do know though - listen to learned voices, but take own decisions.
@ Clemenza will cover it in the article "Our response"
To Anon at Feb 11, 1:18 AM - my friend told me about China and the bracketed reply was mine - an obvious wrong interpretation it seems.
820 AD Algebra Invented. The Arabic scholar al-Khwarizmi set forth the branch of Alegebra. Al Khwarizmi derived his works from Hindu works as well as other earlier works.
You are right on that, and stand corrected. Thanks.
BuA
THOMAS L FRIEDMAN IN NEW YORK TIMES:
There are nine bodies — all of them young men — that have been lying in a Mumbai hospital morgue since Nov. 29. They may be stranded there for a while because no local Muslim charity is willing to bury them in its cemetery. This is good news.
The nine are the Pakistani Muslim terrorists who went on an utterly senseless killing rampage in Mumbai on 26/11 — India’s 9/11 — gunning down more than 170 people, including 33 Muslims, scores of Hindus, as well as Christians and Jews. It was killing for killing’s sake. They didn’t even bother to leave a note.
All nine are still in the morgue because the leadership of India’s Muslim community has called them by their real name — “murderers” not “martyrs” — and is refusing to allow them to be buried in the main Muslim cemetery of Mumbai, the 7.5-acre Bada Kabrastan graveyard, run by the Muslim Jama Masjid Trust.
“People who committed this heinous crime cannot be called Muslim,” Hanif Nalkhande, a spokesman for the trust, told The Times of London. Eventually, one assumes, they will have to be buried, but the Mumbai Muslims remain defiant.
“Indian Muslims are proud of being both Indian and Muslim, and the Mumbai terrorism was a war against both India and Islam,” explained M.J. Akbar, the Indian-Muslim editor of Covert, an Indian investigative journal. “Terrorism has no place in Islamic doctrine. The Koranic term for the killing of innocents is ‘fasad.’ Terrorists are fasadis, not jihadis. In a beautiful verse, the Koran says that the killing of an innocent is akin to slaying the whole community. Since the ... terrorists were neither Indian nor true Muslims, they had no right to an Islamic burial in an Indian Muslim cemetery.”
BUA, if your SMZ buddy is a open minded guy who wouldnt bother u or other religions, then drop the issue. It wont be good to hurt him or critisise his religion, and may have a negative implication on your relations with him. However if he is a guy who is a pro-muslim fanatic (like ZAID ZAMAN alter ego), then put forward these questions to him and see what he says. after all i can provide an almost free flowing supply of such hate verses / verses condoning violence and torture from the Quran. About translation, all the verses above (Quran) are frm Yusuf Ali's or Pickthal's translation while Hadiths are from Muhsin Khan's translation. These are all amongst the most profilic translators of the respective texts and if you indeed bring this up to SMZ, and he doesn't agree with the translations, kindly ask him to provide his translation which shd be sourced frm a notable Quranic translator.
The issue isnt about the ''intrinsic meaning'' that modern Muslims use to defend. Its about how an average person from the ghettos of right from Pakistan to Somalia to Indonesia would interpret those verses. What would they make of it. I can assure you they wont be able to figure out any intrinsic meanings if any. even an educated person like me (and I presume you) cannot find any intrinsic thing in there, other than exactly what is said, as it is said very simply in straight-forward language (eg kill infidels, plunder pagans, make non believers submit etc).
and if those are to be meant in their ''intrinsic meaning'' i can bravely say since the day Islam and the quran came into being, the larger group of muslims have only interpreted all this in one way: the common way u and i look at it. the direct meaning. and thats why they supressed, plundered and massacered non-believers, and made them submit to jizyah and their other rulings where ever they ruled. and the trend carries on to this day in every muslim countries.
how u want to put all this forward to SMZ is up to you. that was just my comment to what ur friend said (i believe this blog will accept all kinds of logical comments, correct me if i am wrong). Again if he is dear to you and isnt a fanatic type of person even 0.001% of ZAID ZAMAN HAMID, then dont upset his feelings.
however If he is one who thinks islam and only islam should dawn every human in this universe, and everyone else are non believing hypocrit demons, and only Muhammad and nobody else is the perfect example in all of mankind of a spotless being, then please ask him to visit here and take the challenge:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm
if he wins the rewards are really fantastic.
Take care bro.
in reply to anon at 10:00 AM
i fully understand and take this opportunity to salute Muslims as you have spoken about eg MJ Akbar, Abdul Kalam, and thousands more. These are persons who see the light at the end of the tunnel and seek it, not try to hack the walls of the dark tunnel for light. These are probably persons who understand, out of the quranic texts, that there are multiple routes to one destination. Each road to the destination is provided with a guidebook. And each of those guide books are not perfect to a varying degree. Hence it is up to the traveller to use his logic and decide if he would blindly follow his book or his wisdom. Its whether he will follow his wisdom, logic and instinct or his believe in only the guidebook over his humanly qualities of senses endowned on every human being for a purpose.
Now when a person without using his own corrective wisdom blindly follows his guidebook, he will act precisely to what it says, in a straight forward point of view. And thats what the largest group of Muslims are doing today. Verses from that guide book, I have provided above, which explains and justifies actions of Muslims like Zaid Zaman Hamid, Osama, Aurangazeb, and millions more.
The other group of lesser followers form the elite group who use their wisdom over their guidebook where they feel the guidebook isnt correct. Remember a guide book can only GUIDE. We eventually make the action, and have a right to accept or deny what we see in the guidebook, using what has been endowned on all humans - LOGIC and SENSE.
The group you speak about, their LOGIC and SENSES prevail over the guidebook. They do what they feel is correct although they may study their guidebook to pick up the good from it and practise that too.
Because at the end of the day when u face the consequences of blind walking, you face the consequences, not the guidebook or the author of the guidebook.
to the guy who quoted verses from The Holy Quran-
if you want to undertsand The Holy Quran you have to take the verses in context.The verses you have mentioned are in the context of a war.
Here i will like to clarify something: Islam does NOT propagate the killing of innocent non-muslims. I accept some elements do this, but they are not true muslims and they are just using islam for their political ends.
About Al Khawarizmi I had this friend from Libya who kept insisting that Al Khawarizmi was the propounder of his treatise on Artihmetic and Astronomy, but the British later credited it to the Hindus as they had perpetual hate for Muslims.
Of course we know that Khawarizmi himself never hid the fact that the Hindus pioneered whatever he merely commented on.
But this Libyan guy was a shallow minded person of lowly intellect. So I stayed at his level - and just asked him to go home and look up the name of Khawarizmi's treatise on arithmetic and astronomy.
This guy doesnt know Arabic as he was bron to a wealthy Libyan family in London who only speak English. (Although he is a proud Muslim)
Anyway he came back the next day and both the treatises ended with the words al-Hind. I then brought him to a Nigerian friend of mine who is fluent in Arabic, and asked him the meaning of al-Hind, in the context of the whole name. The Nigerian said it means ''...of the Hindus''. He went on and asked a few more of his friends and got the same answer
(although it wasnt difficult to deduce Hind = Hindu / something related even for a person who knows not a bit of Arabic like me)
hope i am not ranting, but another thing interesting about Alberuni's visit to India, where he gained deep indights into advanced Hindu astrology and logic and propogated it to the Arabs.
Indian astronomers Aryabhata and Brahmagupta recognized gravity as a force of attraction and understood that there was a force of attraction between the Sun and the Earth.
In Alberuni's ''Ta'rikh al-Hind'' treatise, he wrote that critics refuting Aryabhata's heliocentric system argued:
if such were the case, stones would and trees would fall from the earth.
According to Alberuni, Brahmagupta responded to these criticisms with the following argument, which is astounding with logic:
On the contrary, if that were the case, the earth would not vie in keeping an even and uniform pace with the minutes of heaven, the pranas of the times. [...] All heavy things are attracted towards the center of the earth. [...] The earth on all its sides is the same; all people on earth stand upright, and all heavy things fall down to the earth by a law of nature, for it is the nature of the earth to attract and to keep things, as it is the nature of water to flow, that of fire to burn, and that of wind to set in motion… The earth is the only low thing, and seeds always return to it, in whatever direction you may throw them away, and never rise upwards from the earth.
In response to FA
I hope the larger of Muslims can have a deeper sense of logic like you do. Keep it up. Respect for all, all for respect.
However I cannot denounce my earlier claim on the quran and violence. For example Bukhari 4:52:256 states that while Muslim women and Children must be out of harm's way in war, pagan women and children (non believers) can be exposed to danger. Read it above.
Quran 9.29 from what I know is not in context of war. It doesn't say that at least. I can provide many more examples of such a nature that has nothing to do with war.
Further, remember, the Quran, according to Muslims is the unchanged word of god. there is no such thing as "context for war" or "peace". The Quran is supposed to be timeless and applicable for all epochs of Mankind's existance, according to Muslims. I'm firmly of the opinion that Hudud and Qisas laws were applicable in those days, but not today. It was common all over in olden days for such gruesome punishments. Muslims however don't accept that argument, and continue to argue that these laws, prescribed by Muhammad are applicable to the very end of Mankind. They fail to understand that all that was intended is a deterant, and in those days, this was a deterant. These days, I can bravely say that prison terms are a far better deterant than Sharia. Does Iran / Saudi have the lowest crime rates? No. Its Sinapore, Sweden and other countries practising common law.
the same goes with wearing of the Burqa. This clothing was used by Jahiliahs because (1) to shield themselves from sandstorms (even men used to cover their faces!) (2) to hide women in veils because Jahiliah people used to kidnap ladies and marry them. So to hide them from their family members, they used to veil them up.
However there is no reason for Muslims to wear it in current day in countries like USA, UK etc. All that is prescribed is modest attire in Islam. But it is interpreted to mean EXACTLY what was done at Muhammad's time - full Burqa.
This is what I am saying is unacceptable - RIGID adherence to the book without sparing a moment of thought.
And its this attitude that has moulded into the Muslim fanatic the world has seen for the last 1400 yrs
In response to FA
Further, Islam in its essence may not, as you say, justify killing of innocents (or even discrimination of non Muslims??). Whatever. But its guidebook, which proclaims itself as the divine truth contains way too much material that are against your notion. Imagine if educated people like u and me interprate it in the same way, how else can the illeterate and narrow minded Taliban do so? And even if its done for self gain, the ''gainer'' got a fantastic excuse to justify his actions = ''the Quran's teachings cannot be questionned''.
i hope i have done you no offence. take care
Its great to see "logical" debates on an "emotive" issue. Will come back to this later and will sit with SMZ for sure at a date sooner than later.
However, later if situation permits, I will discuss about an ancient copy of Quran found that is in the hands of "Germans" which the Islamic world tried to hide. Paksitan too had all references to it dropped.
But let's not muddy the issue here on that count. Suffice it to know and keep it in your reserve "brain" that a separate copy of Quran exists and it is now with the Germans.
An article in the Asia Times. The larger Game Plan and SWAT's importance to the Muslim World, And why is Sufi Muhammad the biggest hero of current times for Muslims.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KB19Df01.html
OK BUA thanx. i am sorry for deviating from the topic of swat and talking about the cons of Islam and the Quran. i was just responding to your comment on what SMZ buddy said. again i know he says it out of his conscience and using logics and common sense as to the meaning of religion. i am talking about the true sense of islam, that according to islam alone can lead one to heaven with 72 virgins. so pls take it easy. i will stay silent for the time being as i want the discussion to be on track with the topic ie. swat / taliban.
take care buddy
Wahabies (ahl-e-hadis) are real cause of trouble for Islam and humanity. Their dreadful beards and ugly face are evidence of this phenomena.
About Al Khawarizmi I had this friend from Libya who kept insisting that Al Khawarizmi was the propounder of his treatise on Artihmetic and Astronomy, but the British later credited it to the Hindus as they had perpetual hate for Muslims. Of course we know that Khawarizmi himself never hid the fact that the Hindus pioneered whatever he merely commented on. But this Libyan guy was a shallow minded person of lowly intellect. So I stayed at his level - and just asked him to go home and look up the name of Khawarizmi's treatise on arithmetic and astronomy. This guy doesnt know Arabic as he was bron to a wealthy Libyan family in London who only speak English. (Although he is a proud Muslim) Anyway he came back the next day and both the treatises ended with the words al-Hind. I then brought him to a Nigerian friend of mine who is fluent in Arabic, and asked him the meaning of al-Hind, in the context of the whole name. The Nigerian said it means ''...of the Hindus''. He went on and asked a few more of his friends and got the same answer (although it wasnt difficult to deduce Hind = Hindu / something related even for a person who knows not a bit of Arabic like me) hope i am not ranting, but another thing interesting about Alberuni's visit to India, where he gained deep indights into advanced Hindu astrology and logic and propogated it to the Arabs. Indian astronomers Aryabhata and Brahmagupta recognized gravity as a force of attraction and understood that there was a force of attraction between the Sun and the Earth. In Alberuni's ''Ta'rikh al-Hind'' treatise, he wrote that critics refuting Aryabhata's heliocentric system argued: if such were the case, stones would and trees would fall from the earth. According to Alberuni, Brahmagupta responded to these criticisms with the following argument, which is astounding with logic: On the contrary, if that were the case, the earth would not vie in keeping an even and uniform pace with the minutes of heaven, the pranas of the times. [...] All heavy things are attracted towards the center of the earth. [...] The earth on all its sides is the same; all people on earth stand upright, and all heavy things fall down to the earth by a law of nature, for it is the nature of the earth to attract and to keep things, as it is the nature of water to flow, that of fire to burn, and that of wind to set in motion… The earth is the only low thing, and seeds always return to it, in whatever direction you may throw them away, and never rise upwards from the earth.
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