Before we go into the main article, it will be prudent to look at the Iranian revolution and what can we infer from this.
The Iranian Revolution began when many Iranian citizens within Iran were very dissatisfied with the rule of the Iranian King, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi. He replaced his father on the throne on September 16th, 1941.
The Iranian Revolution was a bottom – up approach with the citizens hating the King’s rule. The Shah (or King) relied on manipulation and fear to lead the people. He established a “secret police” SAVAK: spy on people and report back to the Shah. SAVAK (secret police) set fire to the Cinema Rex in August, 1978, in Abadan. 400 people in the Cinema died.
Moreover, the Shah closely identified himself with the West (U.S.) which was clashing with the Iranian Muslim traditions.
In 1978, the Shah turned to the United States for help and support. Iran had been pro America for quite a while, and Iran was important to America due to the Great Game in Central Asia. Therefore when the U.S. National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski repeatedly told the Shah that the U.S. would support him 100%, it was no surprise. HOWEVER,the U.S. soon realized that the revolution was virtually unstoppable and therefore concluded that associating itself further in Iran would be unwise for them. Nonetheless, the U.S. sent in some military troops anyway to help stabilize Iran. Thus Iran was ruling through America’s military and financial support.
1963: The Shah proposes “White Revolution”. This is a six point reform bill to be put to a nation wide vote. However, Khomeini denounces the Shah’s plans and the Shah exiles him and puts him under surveillance in Tehran. On February 9th, 1979, millions of Iranians came on to the streets of Teheran to welcome the return of the religious leader Ayatollah. He helped overthrow the much hated regime of the Shah. It was one of the largest demonstration in human history (this shows how many people hated the Shah).
The revolution officially started in 1978 with the first major demonstration to overthrow the Shah. In December 1979, the Revolution finally concluded with the Shah removed as the ruler of Iran and with the approval of the new theocratic constitution. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini took the place of the Shah with the approval of Iran.
In November 1979, Iranian revolutionaries seized the U.S. embassy in Tehran and took the employees hostage. The young men held the employees captive for 444 days.
Hence to loosely draw a few points from above:
1. The Iranian revolution was a bottom up approach – it started with mass disenchantment of populace against the rule of the King
2. The secret police and the State brutalized the citizens (setting fire at cinema halls, protestors were killed)- distancing the Iranians away from the State.
3. On Jan 7th 1978, in a newspaper called “Black and Red Imperialism”, was an article written about Khomeini proposing he was homosexual. On Jan 9th – a demonstration of 4000 people against the article resulted in the death of many students.
4. Angry students and religious leaders in Qom, Iran, demonstrated against a false story attacking Khomeini (the man helping overthrowing the Shah) in the official press. The army was sent in, and killed many of the students.
5. The Iranians turned to religion and it clashed with the Western values that the king was trying to impose on the citizens, widening the divide further
PAKISTAN 2009:
Facts against an Islamic Revolution in Pakistan:
Lot of analysts have said that none of the above “ Iranian ingredients” are present in Pakistan today and all talks of “Islamic revolution” is hogwash. If anything, it is the Army & Secret Service (the ISI) that are protectors of the state of Pakistan and are not a hated entity as SAVAK was. Also in the recent parliamentary elections, the moderate factions have won handsomely over the Islamic factions (eg: ANP wins etc).
Islamic extremism in Pakistan is not a grass-roots phenomenon as it has been in many states in the Middle East and Southeast Asia. Pakistan's founding fathers, led by Mohammad Ali Jinnah, preceded by the Indian sub-continent's British colonial rulers and India's Mughal rulers, laid the foundation for Pakistan to be led by the rule of law and moderate Islam.
However, every country is unique and what is good for Iran may not be good for Pakistan. While Islamic revolution was a bottom – up approach in IRAN, in PAKISTAN it is a “top – down approach”. I should also state that Taliban and other terror agencies are killing off ANP and other secular politicians and their families.
The Pakistan military and intelligence agencies have employed Islamic extremism as a tool for their policies. As such, extremist Islam has emerged as a top-down phenomena. Pakistan Army believes that Islam is the binding force that keeps Pakistan intact as it overrules the enthno-language-cultural aspirations of sub-actors in pakistan (Pashto - Baloch - Sindh etc).
During the 1980s, president Zia ul-Haq, backed by the United States, used Islamic extremism to fan the mujahideen against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
During the 1990s, Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and successive governments employed Islamic extremism to challenge the Indian claim to Kashmir by undermining India's conventional military superiority with asymmetrical attacks on soft and symbolic targets in Kashmir.
The ISI also attempted to gain "strategic depth" with regard to India by creating an arc of influence from Central Asia to Afghanistan. It has not hesitated in using Islamic extremism to battle its enemies. This was seen in Pakistan's support for the Taliban regime in Afghanistan until September 11, 2001, and support for Islamic extremist groups in Kashmir (LeT, JeM etc etc).
PERVEZ M.Under President Pervez Musharraf, Islamic extremists entered Pakistan's mainstream political sphere as Musharraf empowered extremists in order to marginalize Pakistan's secular opposition parties while using the growth of Islamic extremism to justify his non-democratic rule.
International terrorist and extremist groups have become increasingly localized, as seen by the rise of the Tehreek-e-Nafaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammadi (Movement for the Enforcement of Islamic Law), led by pro-Taliban cleric Maulana Fazlullah in the Swat Valley in NWFP and the Tehrek-e-Taliban-Pakistan (Pakistani Taliban) based in the South Waziristan tribal area of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, led by Baitullah Meshud.
Pakistan's Islamic identity has not been sufficient to quell strains between its major ethnic groups and accusations that the national government's policies are dictated by the interests of Punjab province.
India's federalist structure of government, which devolved power to the states, also facilitated in undermining separatist tendencies. A similar empowerment of Pakistan's ethnic and religious minorities would weaken separatist tendencies in Balochistan, NWFP and the tribal areas and help to quell sectarian and ethnic violence on the streets of Pakistan's major cities. But this will not be done.
Majority of the Army and terrorist cadres come from the Punjab province of Pakistan and they will not “devolve” power. And thus the Pakistan Army, with the glue of Islam in one hand and the threat of terrorists and ISI on the other hand, has been able to keep the citizens of Balochistan, Sindh, Pashtun areas under a “modicum of control”.
To see how the glue of Islam works - Baitullah Mehsud from terrorist to a true patriot :
BAITULLAH MEHSUD
Baitullah Mehsud was attacking Pakistan Army and killing its cadres, so much so that Pakistan Army had to call truce a couple of times to release its captured soldiers. Many Pakistanis were saying that Mehsud is funded by CIA & RAW as he (and his TTP )was attacking the state of Pakistan.
Right after 26/11 attacks in Mumbai, the terrorist network all across stated that they will fight alongside the Pakistan Army to defeat India.
And the present ISI chief, Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha, described Baitullah Mehsud, the Tehrik- e- Taliban leader whom the Pakistan Army was supposedly battling, as a true patriot.
Baitullah Mehsud has transformed from a terrorist to a true patriot – certified by ISI.
Pakistan is witnessing true hegemony of one province (Punjab) over the rest of Pakistan and hegemony of one sect (Sunni) over other sects of Islam – all done under the garb of “Islam” on one hand and “terrorism” on the other – aided and abetted by Pakistan Army.
The main player is the Punjabi dominated Pakistan Army. It passes on the dirty tricks to ISI – itself filled with Punjabi officers. And for the ultimate covert ops – ISI passes on the job to its “terror children” – be it LeT, JeM or others.
There are 25 feudal families in Pakistan that own much of privately owned enterprises and wealth in Pakistan. However, there is one entity whose business interests and net worth far exceeds that of all these 25 feudal families put together.
And that entity is Pakistan Army.
Pakistan’s armed forces have accumulated billions of dollars’ worth of private assets and business interests in Pakistan, ranging from construction firms to breakfast cereal. This military business (milbus) accounts for more than 6% of Pakistan’s gross domestic product (GDP). This milbus feeds 9 percent of the nation’s population, it generates taxes, and it creates jobs for veterans. By any accounts, this is huge.
Where in Pakistan does one find this military capital?
According to Ayesha Siddiqa’s new book, Military Inc.: Inside Pakistan’s Military Economy, Siddiqa argued that the structure of the military’s economic presence has three levels.
1) One level is institutional and comprises army-controlled public sector organizations such as the Frontier Works Organization and the National Logistic Cell (transport and construction “giants”), as well as smaller cooperatives (such as bakeries, cinemas, and gas stations).
2) Military subsidiaries comprise the second level of Pakistan’s military capital. The Fauji Foundation (established for the welfare of veterans) is, according to Siddiqa, one of Pakistan’s largest business conglomerates. Additionally, the army (Army Welfare Trust), air force (Shaheen Foundation), and navy (Bahria Foundation) boast welfare foundations that enjoy holdings in agriculture, cement, the airline industry, and construction. These subsidiaries, Siddiqa asserted, are largely controlled by the armed forces.
3) Finally, the third type of military capital can be found on an individual level, where perks are doled out to the “military fraternity.” Land, jobs, and influential positions in corporations are provided to those currently in uniform, to retired servicemen, and to “beneficiaries of the military/business complex.
Indeed, Siddiqa contended that this economic clout, coupled with their formidable political power, reinforces and perpetuates the armed forces’ central role in Pakistan’s politics. The military’s political power hastens its involvement in the economy, and its involvement in the economy enhances its political power. As a result, the military has little incentive to withdraw to the barracks. Furthermore, Siddiqa suggested that Pakistan’s non-ruling political elite has its own reasons for supporting a military that remains entrenched at the forefront of Pakistan’s political scene, because under the status quo this elite derives benefits and resources from the military economy.
Ultimately, therefore, to understand Pakistan today, “you must understand the nature of military capital and the nature of the politics that revolve around this capital.”
Therefore, before proceeding further, let us try to answer the following?
1. Who has most economic stake in Pakistan?
Answer : Pakistan Army
2. Who is the real power in Pakistan?
Answer: Pakistan Army
3. Who does the ISI report to?
Answer: Pakistan Army
4. Who do the terror organizations report to?
Answer:Terror groups report in to ISI which in turn reports to Pakistan Army
5. Pakistan Army comprises of officers and soldiers mainly drawn from which province of Pakistan?
Answer : Punjab
6. How does Pakistan Army keep control of the entity of Pakistan?
Answer: In order to retain the primacy of Punjab province from where Pakistan Army drives most of its recruits, and also of its vast business interests, Pakistan Army plays two cards: 1) the fire of Islam and 2) the sword of terrorists. Which is why you will see most of the terrorist organizations are Punjabi based (LeT, JeM etc) and that all provinces of Pakistan are wracked with militancy, but not Punjab.
Note: I find it funny that Lashkar e Taiba which is wholly Punjabi dominated actually had been formed by ISI for insurgency in Kashmir. ISI never trusted the local Kashmiri mujahideens to listen to it or even fight India, hence Punjabi terrorists run the Kashmir show. The truth stared back at Pakistan and the world, when the earthquake shook Kashmir and the world realized how impoverished the Pakistan Occupied Kashmiris actually were. The Punjabi faction of Pakistan will never allow “other” provinces to rise above it.
Many ISI veterans and current generals have gone native with the interests of Taliban. The idea was running a covert war in both Afghanistan and Kashmir by embedding Paksitan Army soldiers with the Taliban, However senior Pakistan Army generals went native. It is for this very reason that Maj Gen Alavi of SSG was murdered, when he went to unmask this unholy alliance between Pakistan Army and Taliban.
TALIBANISTANBy creating “Talibanistan”, Paksitan Army has ensured that its western borders are safe and no forces can come into Pakistan from Afghanistan. However, this Taliban “ideology” has crept in from the hills of west into the main cities of Pakistan. Artists, cinema halls, century old mujra houses, dance festivals are getting bombed and threats on a daily basis. Sectarian violence is endemic and terrorists of banned outfits can be seen openly roaming in main Pakistan cities brandishing Army issued firearms.
Two recent statements by Taliban take the cake:
1. All girls to stop attending schools in SWAT and if found, will be killed. Deadline - Jan 15th, 2009.
2. Women to be made available for marriage to Taliban militia if he so chooses – the “bride’s” father will not have any say in the matter. And "Taliban has announced that if a girl above the age of seven is found outside her house, she would be slaughtered"
SWAT region in PAKISTAN
SWAT : Pakistan’s most popular tourist destination is now haunted by death and fear; few officials now dare to go and serve there.
Hence killing an innocent girl of eight if found loitering outside of her home is considered "normal" yet getting 72 virgins after killing innocents is considered a "welcome gift" on reaching heaven - such is the warped teachings in Madrassas. Nowhere in Quran it is stated, that killing innocents will pave way for 72 virgins. Ajmal Qasab even stated the LeT indoctrinated him and his fellow "terrorists" that after death their body will glow before going to heaven. Of course, he only saw the bodies rotting!
Vikram Sood, ex-RAW supremo, writes: “Pakistan today gives the impression of being a nation at war with itself not only in FATA but in the rest of the country. Muharram was commemorated under the protection of the gun and prohibitory orders. Hundreds of ulema - Shia and Sunni - were barred entry into several districts for fear that they would incite sectarian hatred in the days preceding Muharram.
Cities and towns were declared no go areas. As many as 30,000 places in 28 districts of the Punjab were declared sensitive and 58 ulema were banned from Attock district.
This, in a country which proclaims itself to be the home of all Muslims of the sub- continent, is a reflection of the state of affairs prevailing there.
Even otherwise, a strong Sunni hurricane is sweeping through Pakistan.
Originating in its current phase from FATA, it has spread outwards into NWFP and has reached Punjab and parts of Balochistan and even Karachi. The year that has gone by has been the most violent in Balochistan with more than 250 incidents.
Senator Sanaullah Baloch has alleged that the Pak Army is allowing the Taliban to settle in the province. Three Baloch groups fighting for Baloch rights have called off the ceasefire. The burgeoning population, especially the youth (over 50 per cent of the population will be below 18 in the next few years), will then get attracted to the facilities offered by the LeT and the Jamaat- e- Islami.
The education curriculum in many of the Dawa schools includes subjects like computer science, mathematics and English. It is not a jihadi curriculum and the students are from the middle class who will then form the backbone of the bureaucracy, politics and the military.
NOTE THIS IMPORTANT POINT WHICH MR. SOOD IS SAYING
Even today the recruitment source for the Army and the various jihadi groups operating from Punjab is the same. There is thus a much bigger cohesion of the mindsets of the jihadis and the Army.
This has immediate and long term implications for us. For one, we have not listened carefully and long enough to what the Pak Army's surrogates have been saying in different words at different places.
The message is - we will defeat you, we will annihilate you, because you are evil and you are not our God's men. Soon after the September 11 attacks, Fazlur Rahman Khalili, the Harkat ul Mujahedeen chief, told a press conference that "Osama's mission is our mission. It is a mission of the whole Islamic world." This sentiment is all pervasive. The jihadis want caliphates in India and the Army wants a revenge for 1971.
The important message is not that this will happen but that the mindset remains and the medium of the message is Mumbai.
Mumbai happened for two basic reasons: The mindset that prevails in Pakistan and insists that India must be bled, and the other, that it can be bled. The mastermind knew how we would react and gambled on this. For them it was a win- win situation either way.”
The process of Islamic Revolution in Pakistan is underway. It will not be a spontaneous explosion of public anger as was witnessed in Iran, but rather it will be deliberate, casual and slow in Pakistan.
Unlike Iran, in Pakistan this revolution will be a “controlled revolution” – controlled by Pakistan Army and ISI for purposes mentioned earlier. Before the world will realize, Taliban ideology will start ruling roost in many parts of Pakistan, including some major cities.
One needs two elements now. One is who will be the Ayatollah equivalent in Pakistan? Will it be Hafeez Sayeed or Maulana Masud Azhar or someone else?
And two, the hatred of Jews and America needs to be proportionally increased to bring about a “seamless” Sharia based ideology. For that American drone attacks is only causing anger in the tribal belt, not in Pakistan in general. For that, Pakistan has to be attacked by US or India or worse, Pakistan requests US troops inside its territory to stabilize it (see correlations to Iran).
ISI has the means to replicate 26/11 in USA by using natural born US citizens or British citizens that it has recruited from mosques. There were reports that US might stage the attacks themselves aka Operations Northwoods – however, this time this will be ISI-Al Qaeda operation (like the 9-11 was). And it is expected that the US will not bury the links to Pakistan to the attacks as it did with 9/11. Pakistan is expecting measured response from US – which will suit it well, if at the end of the day all US does is sending Tomahawks into Pakistan. Pakistan is gambling that US will not have the means to anything more. Hence, an attack on US mainland is all but certain. The response from US – that is not certain. If the response it measured - the Islamic revolution inside Pakistan will be fast forwarded.
A limited Indian military strike will also work wonders for Pakistan, in that, it will inflame public anger and Islam being the glue, will bring in all terrorist groups on the side of the Pakistan army – openly. A highly desirable scenario for Pakistan Army that wants to close shop in North West Frontier Provinces and indulge in mock fighting with most of the Taliban groups largely for western consumption.
There is the unstated nuclear angle - if Pakistan has deliverable nuclear assets, it may move out a few and those can then land up in the hands of "terrorists" - all beautifully choreographed by the Pakistan Army.
MASOOD AZHAR
HAFIZ SAYEEDIf Pakistan Army is “grooming” Hafeez Sayeed / Masood Azhar / ?? as the next Ayatollah equivalent, then India and US can kiss its chances of having any one of them in any custody good-bye.
HAMID GUL
HAMID GUL - ex ISI Chief and "Godfather of Taliban" in an interview to Adnkronos International stated: "Pakistan, wracked by terrorism and a deep economic crisis, an environment in which anti-Americanism is thriving, is facing collapse.
The implications of this situation for the fight against terrorism and the security of the country's nuclear arsenal, are dire, he said.
"The risk is real, there could be a civil war, even a revolution along the lines of the Iranian one. Personally, I hope for a revoultion but a soft one, like that the one born in America during the Vietnam war or like pacifist movements in Europe against the war in Iraq, " Gul stated.
Hamid Gul is famously quoted for many things. One of his classics: "The only reason Pakistan does not dismember India is because we never wanted to create problems with our Muslim population in India. India will give its land when it will be divided into many pieces. India will have to be break. If India does not give us our land we will go to war and divide India." Read the interview by clicking here.
BuA analysis:
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1. Surgical strike at terrorist bases when they have been emptied out will make Paksitan Army stronger. The jehadi forces will get the upper hand over Pakistan. Hence, this option as the only option should be ruled out.
2. If at all, limited strikes should be made at “economic interests” of Pakistan Army – not military targets per se. Eg: Frontier Works Organization and the National Logistic Cell & other ther business interests of Pakistan Army.
3. Look out for grooming of Hafeez Sayeed (most likely) as the new Ayatollah of Pakistan. His tremendous charity work during the earthquake of Kashmir is being played out like a propaganda - his "terror role" all but dinned out by that propaganda.
For me, unless you hit the Pakistan Army interests, hitting out at empty terrorist camps will only give us “worse results”.
And lastly, the entire “nexus of evil” in our region is due to the strength of Pakistan Army. The civil society of Pakistan, largely, is not jehadi in outlook. If we do not stop the “Talibanisation” of Pakistan TODAY, at a later date, India will have to pay a far higher price for inactions of today.
The military might of Pakistan Army has to be eroded and eroded significantly. We in India should not shy away from getting a bloody nose in the bargain. If that means, the opponent has been KOed (knocked out), I can live with a bloody nose.
LATEST NEWS: PHALCON - THE FORCE MULTIPLIER HAS LANDED IN INDIA ON 11TH JAN'09.
FROM INDIAN ARMY WITH LOVE TO PAKISTAN ARMYJai Hind !
48 comments:
BuA
I agree with you that the time for surgical strikes are over.
But then, dont you think an economic blockade/warfare is a better option than a military one?
Cheers,
clemenza
BuA,
We are again back to square one! Who will bell the cat? I think bombing and sabotage of Pak Army's top leadership, their families,enterprises will work wonders. But a better idea would be to bait Pak Army into Baluchistan,Sindh etc with Baluchis and natives armed with Spikes,Igla,Night Vision and commando training obviously by "non-state" actors.It is quite clear by now, that "sense will not prevail" in Pak EVER. We gotta rub their nose to the ground and put them in their place. Our "responsible country" postures for UN seat are ridiculous when we are fundamentally sabotaged by a failed state with failing economy and polity. What will China and other relatively well-placed neighbors take from this numb response? They will take us to the cleaners! Like APJ Kalam says strength respects strength, soft power is not an exhaustive substitute to hard power. Look how Hamas and Hezbollah leader are pissing in their pants! Anybody Listening?
Covert ops to blow off the Pak Army economic interests will be my Step 1. And I mean "top of the line" economic interests / companies.
BuA, As you would like yourself to be called. I think that the article does throw a lot of light on the scenario in Pakistan and also shows how entwined the Pakistani Military Pakistan's survival are. Full Marks to the Pakistani Army to command such control over 16 cr. people and add the Afghani's to it, would go well over 20 Cr I guess. They have done the hardwork and reaping the benefits, albeit the cost is being borne by the Indians out of their blood. As you rightly pointed out, the more delay is setting things right for India, the higher the price we pay. Lets do a small back of the envelope calculation,
Scene 1;
Pre 1990 when India was a Nuclear Power (considering the 1974 Pokhran) and Pakistan was not, what would have been the cost of a war till survival against Pakistan, both in terms of Human Casualities and economic losses?? A few Thousand LIves perhaps and a few sanctions by the west who's great game would have gone for a toss. These economic blockades would have hardly made any difference since we were a close economy and the Interest and INflation were something that the current generation would hit the roof on hearing.
Scene2;
History says we lost our pre '90's option. Cut to today, we again have an opportunity to set those historical things right. Smae question, what would be the cost?
As a cheap Hindi News Channel put it (and for arguments sake am taking it), the cost of an Indo Pak war would be about 14000Crs. Affordable, considering that a small scam from a company is 7000 Crs, half of the price of a war I say. That is the monetary aspect. Human capital Losses, this time around probably a few lacs that to in border states. If the Nuke Option is excercised probably in millions. Scary, but on a morbid note, still affordable, what with our 106 Cr. ABAADi... we'd not end up losing much. We'd still have a 105 Cr People even if we loose 10 Million. Are we ready to pay this price now??? A questio to all including YOU BuA?
Scene 3;
10 Years Ahead, History of the future again says we lost an opportunity in 2008/09 and has give us another one say in 2019/20. India is a stronger Nation, doing well growth path is perfectly chalked out all is well. But, so has Pakistan, whichever direction is wants to grow in (which is Islamic Terror Factory Growth). Pakistan will also grow with similar zeal and even more Anti India venom in the current generation which as you pointed our is getting educated in Dawa run educational system.
What would be the cost then? My question to you. Also, do we as the current generation of this great nation, possess any right to burden the future generation with our failures? A generation which has not even seen a freedom fighter alive and does not feel the same way like we do about the freedom struggle. I think we have to take a call wether we are ready to have a bleeding nose or will we save ours to let our children have their's bleeding.
@CLEMENZA: Economic blockade is quasi - warfare. Some posts back, MAX gave one of the best solutions - block waters that go to Pakistan - sp. Chenab. I think the Govt of India should go for calibrated approach - sever all ties, recall Ambassador, repeal Indus Water Treaty and then take it from there. At the same time, we should pile pressure at United Nations, but any move to declare Pakistan a terrorist nation, or even ISI as a terrorist entity will be vetoed by China. This is our war and we must fight it the best way. Give UN two hoots.
@KANNAN: Scattering Pakistan Army into Baluchistan etc to fight, means we have to seriously upscale the "fighting" ability of the BLA and other insurgents there. If we stop having "F*** ALL" PMs like Gujral (who closed down RAW's covert division in Pakistan), maybe we can win this war. I do not see this happening - scattering Pak Army into its provinces any time soon.
@ TTV INDIA : Welcome ! I completely agree with you. "Kal kareyi so aaj kar....." If India attacked Pakistan when India was a nuclear nation and Pakistan was not, the insurgency in Kashmir would never have started and Pak Army & ISI would never have been able to look towards India. We have brought this on us by our inaction. We will have to "decimate" Pakistan Army - no choice.
China is doing two things:
1) Help build Gwadar port in Pakistan, where it will base its Navy.
2) Helping to build Chasnupp 3&4 nuclear reactors which will increase the nuclear warheads that Pakistan will hold manifold.
Consider the situation 10 years down the line then - India cannot block Karachi port as Chinese Navy in Gwadar will thwart such a move.
And Pakistan will have > 200 warheads.
Do you want to set yourself for such a situation. Mumbai 26/11 has given us space. With Phalcons arriving, we have a slim window of opportunity to strike Pakistan.
But we must strike Pakistan when it least expects and strike massively. Currently, Pak is watching every Indian move and it might not be the right time to go to war.
But war we must wage, as I do not want to stare down at a China + Pakistan threat in 10 years time and feel that India has become truly impotent.
The time is now, STRIKE !!!!!
India had never possessed such high courage to break Pakistan, they just worked on American will. Indians are very coward people they could never threat us, unless Americans put their fingers inside Indian butts.
If you explore through Indian foreign policy you will find that India always played a "RAM RAM role" with big powers. I always say that there is a huge resemblance in Indian foreign policy and a "Mumbai prostitute bollywood actress".
If you are a don at Mumbai, even if you are just a small CHAMCHA (Spoon) of some renowned don then you can have any bollywood actress in bed with you as easily as you sox condom over your dick. At similar model, Indian foreign policy works, big powers including USA, Russia, Israel and UK use India like dons and their spoons use bollywood prostitutes in beds.
I think this is God gifted hatred against Indians that Almighty Allah has given me. Thanks to Allah that I at least consider Allah's foes as my foes. And His friends as mine.
I pray that you all heed to Gul's statements and forget what this Israeli toy Phalcon can or cannot do.
BuA,
Your history of the causes and unfolding of the Islamic revolution in the Iran has missed a crucial point : the toppling of the democratic government of Mohammed Mossadeq by CIA.
Similar to your write-up on Afghanistan where you have omitted Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan. The fact that democratic and secular leaders can spring up in Islamic countries doesn't seem to quite fit in your world-view. Is that right ?
As everybody knows, the reason for this toppling (commandeered expressly by Roosevelt's grandson) is (a) to gobble Iran's petrol and gas (b) to prevent Iran getting friendly with the Soviets.
CIA worked hand in hand with Islamists to install its favorite puppet the Shah. It didn't take too long for the Shah to be toppled by the Islamic revolution. Replace Shah with Musharaff/Zia-ul-Haq and Islamists with the Taliban, and then you can conveniently replace Iran with Pakistan.
I also strictly disagree with your conclusions on commencing a war with Pakistan or trying to balkanize that region. As citizens of India, our objectives should be to ensure the safety of Indian citizens and protect the strategic interests of India. Neither of this will be achieved by starting a war with Pakistan (as you yourself have acknowledged somewhere in the essay). War will strengthen the military+taliban enclave.
All of India's bets are on encouraging secular and democratic parties to recapture the power from the military and install a federal and secular constitution in Pakistan. Whatever covert-ops that India engages in should be targeted towards that objective.
Ray, that there are Indians still as naive as you and that too with the best of intentions, does not bode well for India and it is the reason we are in this frightful mess right now. The educated elite should lead the fight to secure the country, since the common man is too busy eking out his basic living - instead the educated are too concerned about watching TV and writing reams of prose.
Fact is that Khan Gaffar Khan was almost a nobody in Pakistan beyond a point - if he was the be all and end all, of Pakhtoon opinion, then the 1948 invasion by Lashkars would never have occurred (led by Pak army officers in mufti). Gaffar Khan was an anomaly in the wider Islamic world as well - take a look at how many Gandhis Pak society has produced apart from the occasional Edhi. In India, you have a dime a dozen mini Gandhis who are more pacifist than the old chap himself.
The point is there has always been a virulent strain of Islam existing in India from the times of invasions and it has been reenergized periodically- whether it was Aurangzebs reemergence, or Shah Waliullah, the original creator of the two nation theory. Pakistan in essence, is the culmination of over a thousand years of Islamic intransigence and the hardline element which cannot live in peace & harmony with other faiths.
The only time Pak has held off terror in India is when its own country is in turmoil - that means sponsoring a covert war against Pak, economic and military and secret services included to destabilize Pakistan and provoke a fratricidal war between Pak Army and its own Taliban thugs.
The so called secular parties in Pakistan are a myth, whose tagline is still hurt India. Kindly read about ZA Bhutto in detail and his daughters actions in creating the Taliban and the Punjab insurgency - in which thousands of Indians died.
The problem with young chaps like you is that you have a limited idea of the historical overview of the region and in fact your knowledge is limited to what is idealogically convenient.
Kindly ditch the tags of communalism, secularism, this ism and that ism, and think in a robust fashion about what India faces and how to counter the same. The rest is irrelevant.
Today it was the people in Mumbai, yesterday it was the people in Ahmedabad, tomorrow it could be you and your family, and no amount of dove type behaviour will help you or the other Indians (whichever religion) who are in this mess.
Regards
Aks
"akistan in essence, is the culmination of over a thousand years of Islamic intransigence and the hardline element which cannot live in peace & harmony with other faiths."
...should read "Pakistan in essence, is the culmination of over a thousand years of Islamic and tribal intransigence and the hardline element which cannot live in peace & harmony with other faiths."
referring to the gents in peaceful areas such as FATA
To BuA Da: The unannounced and yet-to-be-admitted arrival of the first of three PHALCON AEW & C platforms does not automatically mean that the system has been inducted/commissioned into service. There are several more hurdles to be overcome before the PHALCON can achieve full operational capability, and consequently leading to them being commissioned into service as operational assets. Firstly, systems validation of both early warning components of the PHALCON--the EL/M-2075 AESA radar and the ELINT suite--will be required to be done to ensure that there are no unresolved and untoward EMI-related issues. Secondly, the two-way data-linking protocols with the initial 12 ground-based sector operations centres will have to be validated and certified. Thirdly, the PHALCON will be required to conduct several route-proving flights (between the main hub/home base in Agra and up to six alternate basing 'spokes' to ensure the platform's compatibility with the IAF's existing air traffic management protocols. This is highly important since (believe it or not!) there's hardly any free airspace available for either the PHALCON or IL-78MKI-90 aerial refuelling tankers within India! And this is because the civilian and military ATC systems do not as yet function seamlessly as a single integrated operational entity. Therefore, specific air corridors and airspace volumes have, from now on, to be created and enforced. Fourthly, the PHALCONs will be utilised by the IAF for perfecting the concepts of airborne battlespace management involving far larger airborne aircraft packages (up to 36 at a time and involving air dominance combat aircraft like the Su-30MKIs as well as dedicated air interdiction assets like the Jaguar IS and MiG-27M). All this has never been done before and will thus pose a formidable but welcome challenge. Fifthly, and most importantly, human resources training and operational conversion for up to three sets of mission management aircrew for each PHALCON will now commence in earnest, with each PHALCON logging up to 12 hours a month for up to 25 days per month, a highly intensive training regime in order to achieve FOC within the shortest possible time-frame, which will take 24 months to achieve--both for the PHALCON and the accompanying composite combat aircraft formations for both offensive and defensive flight sorties.
Firstly, I cannot understand how can any 'secular' political party exist in a country whose constitution mandates that the country is an islamic republic and which is publicly referred to by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia as being "one of the pillars of the Muslim Ummah (brotherhood)". This state of affairs was reinforced by Gens (Ret'd) Pervez Musharraf and Mirza Aslam Beg throughout the 1990s when the Pakistan Army formally embraced India-specific Jihad as being an instrument of state policy. This consequently led to two perfectly rational and undeniable inferences: one, the Jihadis (be they from POK or Pakistan or the international Jihadi diaspora) were from then on an integral part of the Pakistan Army's ORBAT and as such were tasked with rear-area subversive/sabotage operations via sleeper cells (no one knows exactly how many of them have been pre-located inside India to date); and second, this development has made Pakistan and its Army, since the mid-1990s, the world's first official rogue state and rogue Army. Now, turning to the balance of military power in the subcontinent, it will be foolhardy and unwise to indulge in comparisons of military hardware assets or ORBATs for the simple reason that Pakistan has clearly chosen to indulge in assymetirc warfare rather than conventional warfare. Simply put, this means mobilising up to 10,000 Jihadis (by the ISI, which explains what Musharraf said recently when describing the ISI as being the first line of defence [or offense] in case hostilities commence) against the Indian Army in times of hostilities and using them to relentlessly disrupt the lines of communications, and using 'terror weapons' like conventional warhead-carrying ballsitic missiles to attack India's vital economic installations (like South Mumbai and petrochemicals commplexes in Jamnagar). This is exactly what Pakistan Army COAS Gen Kayani was referring to when he stated that if attacked by the IAF, Pakistan would respond in 5 minutes. What tilts the military balance completely against India now are two things: unlike the Pakistan Army which takes ALL decisions pertaining to waging war (and is consequently quicker to make them), the Indian armed forces cannot as they are constrained by political decision-making which is very much slower and often almost indecisive as the political establishment has no idea of or inclination for appreciating or understanding the true virtues or applications of overwhelming military prowess (hence its feet-dragging on matters like the need for a Chief of Defence Staff, Integrated Theatre Commands, and single integrated operational plans); and the absence, thus far, of a credible ballistic missile defence system which is expected to be available for protecting India's vulnerable economic centres of gravity only by 2012. But the greatest hindrance to India's military force modernisation efforts is the compulsive and criminal adherance by the MoD's Dept of Defence Production & Supplies on the policy of procuring the critically required force-multiplier hardware like Gen 3 night vision devices and communications systems from only defence PSUs like BEL, etc. The problem here is that defence PSUs are unable to autonomously raise financial capital from the stock markets in order to finance their industrial production capacities and are totally reliant on the MoD's annual budget for such efforts. The result: production capacities are unable to meet the spurts in demand for vitally required hardware. Unless this dysfunctional state of affairs is immediately rectified, all well-intentioned force modernisation plans and long-term perspective projections for force modernisation will be mere paper exercises! Therefore, instead of dwelling on a make-believe world, the MoD without any further delay must undertake financial divestment of entities like BEL, HAL, OFB, all MoD-owned shipyards, and BEML and make them publicly listed industrial entities, with the MoD owning only golden shares in such industrial entities. It is only by undertaking such strategic divestments that will enable these existing DPSUs to quickly forge strategic industrial partnerships with their foreign counterparts and only then will true and genuine direct/indirect industrial offsets begin to proliferate. If anyone expects the existing defence offsets policies to become success stories in the midst of an existing dysfunctional setup that seeks to perpetuate state ownership of India's military-industrial entities, then the concerned persons are only living in a fool's paradise. And the ultimate price will be paid by India's armed forces as their force modernisation goals will never ever be realised in a time-bound manner. That's the writing on the wall. Hope the Hon RM and Hon NSA take note of this inglorious strategic inevitability.
@RAY : You have every right to either use or abuse the freedom of speech given to all. Your insinuation that I may not have a "secular" bone in my body is without merit.
Acts of omissions, as they are pointed by you, could be due to two factors -
1) The crux of the message given in the writeup, does not get materially altered by inputting the details or,
2) I may not be aware of the incident (did not strike me while writing)
The first is the case for Afghanistan and the second is the case for Iran.
In my writings I have showcased the duplicity of the "Great Powers" in the Great Game. Now, many of you will not be surprised by the tone of David Miliband - we have a historical context and their immediate needs to factor in.
In the current article, amongst many things, I have written : "The civil society of Pakistan, largely, is not jehadi in outlook."
I am a great admirer of Ataturk too.
Perhaps you know that in Islamic countries today, leaders use "primitive methods of torture" on Islamists - yes you heard that right. They boil alive suspected "fundamentalists". Do you know which countries I am taking about?
Contextualize the environment.
Lastly, while your views may be cogent, I see you lack the macro vision of the environment. You are concerned with the "micro aspects".
You stated: "I also strictly disagree with your conclusions on commencing a war with Pakistan or trying to balkanize that region. As citizens of India, our objectives should be to ensure the safety of Indian citizens and protect the strategic interests of India. "
You feel, that war will endanger the lives and safety of Indian citizens - hence what? we keep quiet and send covert divisions inside Pakistan to carry out "activities". They can only do much and not more.
Ray, while you may be a good person at heart, and I believe so are many others, you need to go to SWAT and indeed bazaars of Lahore and see for yourself the grass root citizens of Pakistan, specially coming out from Madrassas. Factor in the importance or sway they have and will have on Pakistan and who will become the future rulers of Pakistan. Then, formulate your strategies of dealing with them - those who do not want to deal with you, want to kill and maim you - not because they are fundamentally bad people - but because their mind has been transformed in the madrassas and poverty ridden bylanes of Pakistan where hopes of a good life vanish with every day.
There are no short cuts, my friend. We have to crush and kill and in bargain get hit too. But if you have fought in your life, that is the way forward with "certain" cultures.
Trying to appease or talking is seen as a sign of weakness. By talking and appeasing SINCE 1971, we have hurt India more.
The year Pakistan went nuclear, they started the Kashmir insurgency. Make no mistake of the motives of our enemy - Pakistan Army.
Perhaps, Ray, it was a good hearted person like you at the helm of India when we did not bomb Kahuta - when Pakistan did not have nuclear weapons and we had.
Look, where it has lead us today.Extrapolate this 10 years down, as I have said before. When Chinese Navy sits at Gwadar and your option of blocking Karachi port too vanishes. Chinese help to Chanupp nuclear reactors too alter the equations. Do we sit still Ray, and watch for "brotherly" political process to unfurl in a largely Islamic & Army dominated Pakistan?
@TTV INDIA: See this article:
http://bengalunderattack.blogspot.com/2008/11/900-growth-of-islamic-population.html
See what we are incubating :)
@Prasun,
It's frightening to see the gaps that were also brought forward to some extent by Indian Express.
Why is there an almost fatal attraction for "indigenous" production, when we simply can't? Have we learnt nothing at all from the past?
The escape of "well known" militants who were surrounded by Indian Army in Kashmir managed to sneak away in dense fog, because we did not have thermal imagers and night vision goggles. Heck, the ordinary LA gangster has night vision binocs.
And Pak Army bought the latest night vision glasses with the US $11 billion received for fighting terror. And we are "night blind".
It's like waiting in a restaurant asking to be served Kobe steaks - and the restaurant managers wants to make it "indigenously".
What next Prasun?
RAY - There u go again. I saw that u r based in France. Have not the ghetto rioters there taught you anything?
U indians, you disguist me.
To Anon above,
At least say why we cause such disgust? Be a little more effusive - I am actually missing the "Urine drinking" compliments received earlier from across the border :)
BuA,
One Simple Suggestion, let the people who post do it more responsibly, irrespective of their caste/creed/nationality. Please remove the option of Anonymous POsting here.
@Aks :
I have obviously never visited Afghanistan or Pukthoonkhwa. But from what I hear of my Afghan friends, Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan is the most respected Afghan leader in the modern times. It is similar to saying the most respected Gujarati leader in modern times is Mahatma Gandhi. This fact didn't stop the Godhra-afternmath massacres in Gujarat. Irregulars looking to loot, plunder and murder can be found anywhere in the world : Afghanistan included.
@Prasun :
As you have said, the nature of warfare has changed rapidly in the last one decade. I think anti-terrorist activities should be given the lion's share of the military budget and anti-terrorist force should be explicitly made part of the army. I highly support giving our troops with the best equipment, but certain things such as spending on anti-missile technology should not be on the top of our priorities. It is more important to spend resources on intelligence, making our population centres secure to terrorism and superior equipment to commandoes (not to mention an active media propaganda to voice the Indian view on the world stage).
@BuA :
My intention is not to criticize you. I questioned you whether you believe a secular leadership can happen in Islamic countries. And by giving the example of AtaTurk, you have replied in the affirmative. I would like you to consider that a similar leadership can be obtained in other Islamic countries as well.
About the general issue of statesmanship and protecting our country's assets, I think we should look up to the ancient wisdom of Chanakya. A king should utilize saama (bribery), dhaana (sacrifice), bheda (difference of opinion amongst the adversaries) and danda (punishment/warfare) strategies to weaken the enemies and secure leadership. The important thing to note is that these strategies should be applied in the given order. When a saama strategy works, there is no point using a dhaana strategy. When a bhedha strategy works, there is no point using a danda strategy. Somebody who wishes to be a leader should respect this order. (The trouble is most of the countries in the world wish to be thieves instead of leaders. India doesn't have to follow them.)
The fact of the matter is that Pakistanis are not united in their antagonism to India. A huge section of the population (reasonable to presume that they form a huge majority) actually support India. In that case, it should be our task to isolate our enemies (bhedha strategy) and decimate them.
To Anon@1.13AM: The persistent shortage of Israel-designed HHTIs and other night-vision devices is due to only one reason: the Dept of Defence Production & Supplies insists that only BEL can supply them. And BEL in turn, being a MopD-owned DPSU, does not have the requisite funds to buy over loss-making companies like ECIL, KELTRON, MELTRON, PUNWIRE, ITI etc and turn them around and consequently boost production capacity. That is the untold story of these so-called Navrantas. What is not covered adequately by India-based multimedia entities is the daily inter-departmental politiking between the Dept of Defence Production & Supplies and the various Financial Advisers attached to the MoD, MHA, Ministry of Public Enterprises etc, all of which results in gridlock leading to paralysis in terms of decision-making.
To Ray Lightning: The nature of combating terrorism internally is such that even the armed forces will not be able to combat them with the desired results. Let me explain further: the armed forces are trained and equipped for decisively defeating clearly identified enemies by mauling them for good. In this scenario, no prisoners are taken and no infrastructure (civil or military) is free from destruction during such hostilities/engagements. In contrast, specialised counter-terrorism outfits like the Rashtriya Rifles have a totally different mandate and rules of engagement as it is required to function within a civilian environment without compromising on efficiency and lethality. Therefore, as a rule, the armed forces should NOT be involved in counter-terrorism operations as there is always the possibility of them being subjected to adverse civilian backlash of a very demoralising kind. The ostrich-like political decision-makers of India should have by now converted the Rashtriya Rifles into a permanent entity (they're not at the moment and remain a temporary Army-heavy formation) whose only mandate should have been counter-terror and counter-insurgency operations of the attrition-type. Had this been done, then India's counter-terror and counter-insurgency operations (which require a totally different kind of operational mindset as opposed to what the armed forces are indoctrinated for) would have been well-funded and coordinated by a dedicated Ministry of Internal Security. At the moment India is bleeding because of bureaucratic and dysfunctional duplication that results in almost every paramilitary organisation (CRPF, BSF, CISF, NSG, ITBP, etc) being trained for counter-terror, counter-insurgency or anti-naxal operations! Believe me, had the Mumbai Police had a 200-strong SWAT contingent in place, then it along with the Indian Navy's MARCOS teams could have easily neutralised the terrorists in Mumbai without any kind of support from the NSG.
WHAT WILL COME FIRST:
AN ISLAMIC REVOLUTION IN PAKISTAN AIDED BY PAK ARMY OR
A TERRORIST HIT IN USA
???????
a terrorist hit. that will cause us invasion into pak, which will be welcomed by pak leadership with red carpet. that will bring about an islamic revolution and much of usa money will be spent battling them. at the same time this effort to fight insurgents by usa + insurgents fighting everything n everything will cause an implosion in pakistan - leading to break up.
india: mission accomplished.
pakistan broken. usa weakened. kashmir ours.
We should stop buying goods Made in China for
1. They are the ones who support Pakistan in its wrong doings against India.
2. They want India to be in an inferior position globally.
3. The goods dumped in India are of inferior quality but CHEAP.
i agree ^^
enough of those stupid king long buses that always break down more often than even 20 yr old leyland n tatas
and 'golden dragon' tyres
when u go and buy electronics eg: Samsung / Philips, first find out where it is manufactured. IF they say China, dont buy it. Simple.
The brand can be from any country, but most of it is manufactured in China. Let the shopkeepers know that you are boycotting Chinese manufactured goods and he will simply stop stocking them.
That's the way to go.
@RAY: You stated - "The fact of the matter is that Pakistanis are not united in their antagonism to India. A huge section of the population (reasonable to presume that they form a huge majority) actually support India".
What do you mean by "they support India". If you mean the vast majority of Pakistanis support India over Pakistan due to Mumbai riots or that Indians are vicitms of terrorism wrought from their country - then you are wrong.
Please do not equate the euphoria shown by Pakistani populace when Indians went visiting to cheer their cricket team in Pakistan. The vast majority are bothered about their "life" - correct - but when the situation is grim - the voice of Islam is enough to drown out the "moderateness".
I am under no such illusion. The so called elite or the madrassa bred student - hate India and Indians. Their education system inculcates this hatred.
A small example. Just google "Hindu Kutta" and see what comes out. A couple of yrs back, an Indian diplomat went to visit his foreign service counterpart in Paksitan. Out came their effusive 7year old son who was introduced to the Indian diplomat. On knowing that he was from India - the 7 year old started jumping and shouting - "Hindu kutta, hindu kutta" - much to the embarrassment of the Pakistani host.
This is not an isolated statement. We are simply not liked by Pakistanis and it should not be a difficult thing to digest.
@TTV -
A vast majority of ppl here have asked me to keep the comment section "open" and without the "word verification" as no one will come to spam here.
It's been true till date - there were a couple of messages that were deleted, but by and large, this has worked fine.
However, thanks for your comments, will keep in mind if things go out of hand. ;) (unlikely tho')
To the Anon (s) who started this boycott of "Made in China" suggestion - well I have been following it for past 1 year.
Prasun:While it is true that India cannot "nuclearize" Brahmos due to restrictions - will this also be true for the next gen Mach 5 Brahmos?
Somewhere I was reading, that Brahmos is such a powerful weapon, as due to its sheer speed, it is being called an "Aircraft carrier destroyer". And it is for this reason, it is not finding many buyers as no one wants to "destroy the American aircraft carriers"?
Are they really such a potent weapon?
And, what role do you see the Chinese Navy playing in case of a naval blockade by Indian Navy on Karachi port. 3 Chinese Navy ships are ostensibly in Gulf of Aden, not too far from Pakistan. Thanks.
BuA
===
Nepal had a communist revolution that swept into it like a whirlwind and India was caught off guard.
Hope India is not caught off gaurded here.
@BuA
Limited strikes at economic interests of the PA, as you suggested won't do any better for us. For example Frontier Works Organization is a huge construction firm that builds mostly civilian infrastructure, such as roads, bridges, tunnels, dams etc. Fauji is a conglomerate; like Birla or Tata in Pakistan. Millions of Pakistanis depend on Fauji and FRO. Fauji has everything under their wing e.g. fertilizer, gas, consumables, food, power, oil and other essentials you name it. Even charity! Attacking such entities, of which average Pakistanis are made to depend on would only multiply the fallout of limited strikes at emptied camps - the fallout is Pakistani hatred towards "evil India" for destroying infrastructure, companies and projects crucial to civilians.
About cutting waters to Pakistan, that is the biggest leverage we have over them. Of course this too would amount in hatred towards "evil India" but we should start playing the bold card: we don't care two hoots whether you like or dislike us. What we care about is ourselfs and our nation not Pakistanis likings and dislikings. One excellent example is Russia, which recently cut-off gas supply to Ukraine (and eventually the rest of Europe) due to "pricing disagreements" -at the best time: when the Ukrainians and other Europeans need gas most: Winter!
As we know it was nothing to do with the price. Russia's message message to Ukraine was clear: "forget NATO" / USA. Their message to NATO countries in Europe who depend on Russian gas passing through Ukraine was "forget Ukraine". Clear cut, easy to understand.
In our case water is far more precious than gas, especially for a country like Pakistan that depends on agriculture, which contributes 25% of its GDP, employs 45% of Pakistan's labour force and constitutes over 35% of its exports. In this case however, summer (mid year) would be great for India to move accordingly and say "check" to Pakistan's army and leadership.
Pakistan has left the ball in our court. We looking at it bounce currently. It's either we hit a superb forehand or await the ball to stop bouncing and roll out of the white lines -which will award 1 point to Pakistan.
MAX - Welcome back !
By intertwining "locals" into military business, Pakistan might have taken an "obvious" target from India - but what exactly are our "soft" options?
There has to be stop gap options before the onset of summer. And I am not even sure if India will have the "guts" to use "water" as a tool.
Till summers, economic targets that hurt the top echleons of Pak Army is par for course.
Let us look at Pakistan Steel Mills then - where Musharaf and SHaukat Aziz made millions in the sell off. And to the Kargil "operator", I will take a strike at Pakistan Steel Mills.
Anyway, its not to get emotional but the Army should hurt the long term economic interests of Pakistan Army's business enterprise - whatever that may be.
@BuA
Sorry I have some pressing obligations to be fulfilled, so please don't mind my silence although I pop in when I can to update myself on the content.
It depends on what we mean by "strike". If you mean military surgical strikes at economic interests, such as Fauji, that point is out. If you mean strikes such as sabotage etc. to cause the downfall of those economic assets, you're in, but remember, such acts will take several summers to fructify. And outcome can be questionnable.
When it comes to water however nobody can go wrong. Nobody can assist Pakistan in this respect: not China, not USA. That is without facing India. Water will bring Pakistan, USA and the other stooges to the table where we can lay our cards straight and get things our way. If a compromise is not reached, what can USA do other than sanctions? We've lived with US sanctions for many years and that shouldn't pose a big challenge for us. They will eventually have to tow our line as Pakistan, like any other country will be at the brink without water.
Of course you need steel nerves and "balls" for all this, something clearly lacking amongst our politicians. I wonder if Israel and Russia can supply us any?? LOL
prasun sengupta says
(believe it or not!) there's hardly any free airspace available for either the PHALCON or IL-78MKI-90 aerial refuelling tankers within India!
what u mean sirr?
hamid gul, if its so easy for isi to break india, why did operation k2 (kashmir and khalistan) fail? After all pakistan has been trying to sever kashmir through insurgency, by full force military intervention, by means of negotiating silly solutions, by pleading there case to OIC and china and stupid other muslim groups, by calling for a plebiscite that they themselves wont honor.... silly muslim faggots
anyway whats gul's problem with brahmins "dominating" india? was our PM during the time of interview (2004) brahmin?? was our prez brahmin? was our def min brahmin? was indias richest man a brahmin? was indias largest conglomerates run by brahmins? how many percentage of indian states CM are brahmin? perhaps reflective of the 5-6% pop!! Perhaps in some parts Brahmins may be still living in Vedic age but today in cities like where i live, i dont see the difference between brahmin and other castes, neither does anyone else.
now lets talk about imperialism in pakistan. in 2004 shaukat aziz (punjabi) was pm. Musharraf (punjabi) was prez and general. Defence minister Sikendar Ikbal was punjabi. All the largest banks and conglomerates (habib group, Atlas, Ghani, Dawood, Sohraab etc [i know they all sound stupid but they are Pakistan biggest cos LOLLLL]) all Punjabi companies. Billionaire (couldnt find any others but mian mansha, mohd kaleem???) are all punjabi. Others in the list are politicians ROTFLMAO!! Even Gul himself is a Punjabi!!! Ok there are some SIndhis too, give credit where its due... but how about 'azad' kashmiris? any FANAites? any baluchis? any NFWPians?
can u find any.....
searching.. searching...
not found!
FUCK FACE
TO ANON ABOVE - WELL SAID !!! LOL
@ Indo/Israeli agencies are
training the takfiris/tehrikis
and Kharajist terrorism in
Afghanistan and Pakistan.
India has 21 consulat in
Afghanistan's remote regions
recruiting terrorist to
perpetrate suicide bombs attacks
Israeli are present in
Afghanistan using the consulat
facilities to train, brainwash,
arm and finance them.
Israel is preparing bomb
attacks in Iran from
Afghanistan.
Saadullah Aurakzai Kabul
@ some of the above comments
from Hinduists are nothing but
pure cowdum and bullshit !!
Prem Khatri London
AN URDU POET SAID LONG AGO 'NA KHANJAR UTHAYE GA NA TALWAR HE, YEH BAZOO MERE AZMAY HUAE HAIN"
REST ASSURED INDIA WILL NOT DO ANY THING OTHER THAN ISSUING EMPTY STATEMENTS AND IMPOTENT THREATS.
SO PLEASE DO NOT LOOSE YOUR SLEEP OVER THESE ISSUES . A SMART AZZ SAID LONG , IF WISHES WERE HORSES THEN BEGGARS WOULD RIDE.
To make clear where I'm coming from, I'm a 23yrd old Karachi-born US citizen who has been living back in Karachi since July08 due to family and business reasons.
I've been enlightened by a lot of the stuff that I've read on this page and I agree as well as disagree with lots of different elements, including some in the original article. But I'd like to leave all those details behind for a moment and try to focus more on some basic fundamentals.
As a businessman and an observer of societies and their histories (I've traveled to many different countries as well and met people from various parts of the world), I'm a firm believer that trade and economic growth is the ultimate answer to the world's problems and conflicts, and including the problems between India and Pakistan.
During my work in Pakistan I've met many retired Pakistan Army people who have taken up jobs at private businesses (by private I mean not military controlled). This means two things: First, these men deem financial acquisition (probably for the welfare of their families, as they aren't excessively wealthy to begin with, as would be the case with 99.99% of military personnel, I would assume) to be more important than any ideology that the Army may have been trying to push, and second, the Army obviously doesn't have some sort of financial/economic omni-power, otherwise it would've been able to provide these men with better jobs or opportunities than the jobs they took up in the private sector. Therefore, we can deduce two things: 1. If the private business sector was to become stronger in Pakistan, the Army would become weaker as they wouldn't be able to pay people what the private sector can pay them, and 2. The private sector already has made significant progress in this respect, so with some further hard work, time, and optimism, we may be able to get to the stage where the Army is no longer able to play its frivolous games.
So I believe that the best solution to India's security problem is the economic development of Pakistan. The prospect of a serious Indian attack on Pakistan would be impossible as long as the Pakistan Army has the capability to nuke their major cities. The prospect of the Pakistan Army somehow breaking up India into pieces and taking the land is downright laughable, but that is possible for India to break up Pakistan, especially with the help of the US, so that China would lose an ally and India may become a stronger US ally to counter China; so that is a possible solution to India' security problem, or at least it may seem so at first. There are three problems with it: First, the process of balkanizing Pakistan may take a while, and all that while, the Pakistan Army will be responding by orchestrating terror attacks in India; this is an event that is actually taking place (India attempting to balkanize Pakistan and Pakistan responding with terrorism). The other problem with this solution is that even if it is achieved, it would be adverse for the economic state of Pakistan, and therein lies the root of the extremism problem. And the third problem is that even once it's achieved, the now-limited-to-Punjab Pakistan Army may still be exercising influence over the other states (Sindh, Karachi, Balochistan, Gwadar, Pakhtoonistan, or however it may be broken up), and may eventually succeed in reuniting.
So it seems to me that the only permanent and least risky solution to India's security is the economic development of Pakistan, including education and the alleviation of poverty as well as reducing economic disparities among people. Extremism would automatically be uprooted as would the power of the Army, and all Pakistanis would look favorably upon India as a trading partner (as most urbanized Pakistanis in the developed private sector already do, as far as I've seen, as well as viewing India as the source of their beloved StarPlus and Bollywood movies). One problem we need to work on now is the development of the FATA areas, where all the extremists come from.
I might seem idealistic but I think as decent and optimistic people this is what we should really be aiming for.
we the pakistan muslims and army are mother fuckers useful for nothing.Actually we are coward and scary to face indian army
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